Yamaha 2000iS and softstart with AC?

[MNRon]

I have a older Yamaha 2000iS (not sv2) and a Magnum 3012 hybrid inverter but can’t run an AC due to the poor surge capability of the generator (it drops voltage too fast for inverter to ‘support’ it so inverter takes over completely; then tries to go back to genny and cycle repeats).

If I can add a softstart module to the AC and know it will work I’ll spend the $300 gladly. If I can’t be sure, I’m probably better to invest in a new generator.

Does anyone have experience running an AC with the older Yamaha 2000iS and a softstart module (either Micro air or NetworkRV)?

Thanks

[3_tons]

On edit, to clarify:

The ad hoc fix I’m now thinking about is to add another ATS Switch with it’s own dedicated genny power cord….By this means, when not using the generator I’ll still be able to run the air cond on shore power OR inverter via the existing path, but with the addition of a separate isolated ATS switch (and dedicated genny power cord), the option of using the Honda in eco mode (when active) to exclusively power up just the air conditioner…This (only when genny is active) will isolate shore power and/or the inverter (either source) from the generator until the genny is shut down….With genny active, ATS will ensure no conflict between either of the power paths - with genny on new power cord as the priority…With genny down, new ATS will redirect power coming from the inverter or shore power (whichever is active) to the air conditioner….

Who says you cant have your cake and eat it too - lol

3 tons

[3_tons]

Otrfun, Yep, I’ve been expecting the Honda to run the air conditioner while in eco mode (but wouldn’t…), so I decided to try and isolate the issue. This is when in the end that I decided to bypass the Xantrex pass-thru smart inverter, and found that the inverter was rejecting acceptance of the Honda’s output when in eco mode…Bypassing the fussy inverter entirely is what did the trick…

So am I to assume that your camper’s electrical system doesn’t use this type of inverter??…Thanks 🙂

3 tons

[otrfun]

3 tons wrote:
So today at 93df ambient, and with inverter bypassed and entirely out of the campers VAC loop, I decided to run the air conditioner directly (via the main panel) from the Honda 2200i with it in the eco mode…Before starting, I first ran the air cond for about 40 minutes to be certain it was up to operating temp…Results??….. After a half dozen test the Honda started the air conditioner while in Eco every time….

FWIW, Before taking the inverter out of the loop, I had first tried by lowering the ProSine 2.0 (a pass-thru inverter) inverter’s cut-off voltage and Hz to Xantrex’s lowest allowable settings of 85v and 50h, but to no avail…The inverter apparently ‘sees’ this as a defective shore power scenario and disconnects from the genny… And this is where the genny to inverter oscillations begin… As previously mentioned, I do have a Soft-start…

Makes me kinda wonder, of these many folks who report that their generators will operate their air conditioners while in the eco mode - how many of these generators being used in conjunction with a Smart (I.e. power sensing) pass-thru type inverter??

This is just another reason why the outcomes of each case may have a different ending…

3 tons

We've discovered the Micro Air needs a very clean pure sine wave to operate properly. There are some inverters and inverter generators that will not operate properly with the Micro Air because they distort the waveform under load. It may be possible the Micro Air itself modifies the sine wave in a non-voltage way (during the critical inrush current phase) that disrupts the proper operation of some hybrid systems. It could be something innocuous as just changing the phase ever so slightly.

BTW, maybe I'm mistaken, but I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that you were having problems starting your Micro Air equipped 11k BTU a/c with your Honda EU2200. I found that surprising. Now that I understand the context, it makes more sense. Our Honda EU2200 will start/run our 11k BTU a/c without a Micro Air. We went ahead and installed the Micro Air anyhow just to reduce wear and tear on the Honda. 50-60a of inrush places a lot of electrical/mechanical stress on these smaller generators.

[3_tons]

So today at 93df ambient, and with inverter bypassed and entirely out of the campers VAC loop, I decided to run the air conditioner directly (via the main panel) from the Honda 2200i with it in the eco mode…Before starting, I first ran the air cond for about 40 minutes to be certain it was up to operating temp…Results??….. After a half dozen test the Honda started the air conditioner while in Eco every time….

FWIW, Before taking the inverter out of the loop, I had first tried by lowering the ProSine 2.0 (a pass-thru inverter) inverter’s cut-off voltage and Hz to Xantrex’s lowest allowable settings of 85v and 50h, but to no avail…The inverter apparently ‘sees’ this as a defective shore power scenario and disconnects from the genny… And this is where the genny to inverter oscillations begin… As previously mentioned, I do have a Soft-start…

Makes me kinda wonder, of these many folks who report that their generators will operate their air conditioners while in the eco mode - how many of these generators being used in conjunction with a Smart (I.e. power sensing) pass-thru type inverter??

This is just another reason why the outcomes of each case may have a different ending…

3 tons

[3_tons]

Here’s a great video about how Victron inverters (including hybrid) work…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPfUn5ki7OM

3 tons

[Itinerant1]

3 tons wrote:
Agreed, that’s quite a system you have Sir, and a good real world testimony about the advantages of having a hybrid type inverter.

3 tons

If you're going with a pass through inverter/ charger the hybrids are really nice and the upcharge really isn't that bad in the big scheme of glamping. Plus offers many options for different situations you might be camping or mooch docking in. 🙂

[jjrbus]

After getting internet advice and wasting some money trying to run a roof air on a Honda 2000, I use a 8000 btu window AC for my little Toyota, I added a hard start to the AC and the mighty little Honda runs the AC under all conditions, Rocky mountains to Death Valley. Mini split AC would be my first choice but I do not have room for evaporator.

Home Depot and others rent Honda 2200's, rent one on the hottest day you can, AC draws more power as temperature increases. And at high elevation if possible, gen output decreases at elevation.

[Tvov]

We borrowed a EU2000w Honda a couple years ago, it ran our AC fine for a weekend... but I shut off the ECO mode. Our friends who we borrowed the gen from did not know about the ECO mode - they had warned us that it might not work for our AC.

So you can get by with a 2000w (although, running with ECO off sort of defeats the "quietness" of the gen).

Having said that... last year we bought a EU3000 Honda.

Wow, what a difference.

Noticeably quieter, no need to shut of ECO mode, starts the AC fine, and doesn't even rev up to full RPM! We used it last week at a rustic state park, could barely hear it running. Neighbor campers with a 3400w Champion (not sure of exact model) were very much louder - not bad like a contractor gen, but certainly louder than our Honda.

YES, bigger generators are better - and run quieter!

Having said that... weight. The 2000w gens are usually "suitcase generators", light enough for one person to carry. 3000w gen is a two person job just to get it into the back of the truck. But it is worth it!

So... I don't think I answered any questions with that post.

See you camping!

[3_tons]

Agreed, that’s quite a system you have Sir, and a good real world testimony about the advantages of having a hybrid type inverter.

3 tons

[MNRon]

I have 630AHr Lifeline AGMs connected with 4/0 throughout, batteries have no problem supplying 400A. Even though it’s momentarily, I’m not happy driving those type currents in the Magnum 3012, nor the ~35+A that implies to the AC. Necessary to start, but oscillating around those numbers can do real damage.

As stated, I need a bigger generator, period.

My 3012 boost capability is great when plugged in to 30A as it allows me to run two ACs, misc light stuff and not pop the breaker when my wife turns on her hair dryer. I expect it will do the same when I get a beefier generator too.

[3_tons]

“Not fast enough to keep Yamaha2000iS from bogging down and sending the system into oscillation causing 400+A draw from batteries (and not doing the AC any good)… “

Neither my former two GC’s nor my 200a/h LFP is capable of anything close to providing a 400a draw, yet either would run my 11kbtu air cond via inverter by themselves…Though I can’t now recall an exact figure, I’m certain that upon a Locked rotor condition, that the chemically sluggish GC’s voltage sagged considerably for a brief period of time…My sense is that it is in this way that lowering the cut-out voltage (strictly per mfg’s embedded limitation) would be an acceptable practice…

I should also add to my previous that my ProSine 2.0 inverter runs the 11kbtu air just fine, but my goal is to have the Honda 2200i to operate consistently while in the eco mode…

3 tons

[Itinerant1]

When using either Honda generator I turn the "eco" mode off. MNRon have you tried turning the fan on only for a couple of minutes when first using the A/C for the generator & Magnum to sync up, then switch over to A/C. Before adding the microair I would do that and it did help to prevent the Magnum from faulting.

What A/C unit and size is it? What elevation?

[MNRon]

Itinerant1 - watching the arc50 battery current draw is how I saw those numbers. I don’t fully understand why starting the AC when the generator was on and Magnum3012 in load support showed numbers higher than when I started the AC just on the 3012 without the generator involved. I suspect some of the issue is sampling, as well as syncing behavior of the 3012 as it attempts to titration current with the generator involved…but I do know the generator was bogging down during this as was the AC.

With that said, I tried it two or three times and got similar results: arc50 shows +30A or so charging batteries from generator; AC turned on and current swings momentarily to -400A 12v current or so, oscillates briefly then 3012 kicks generator out and settles down to -180A (had some lights and other things on) running AC fine; after little bit 3012 tries to bring generator back in (still running) and current jumps back up to -400A range again. After a few sequences watching this oscillatory behavior I chose to run AC off of batteries alone for an hour or so (it was HOT out) but didn’t want to subject my AC to any further experimentation.

I discussed all of this with Magnum tech support and their only suggestion was to lower VAC cutout voltage allowing more time for 3012 to establish load support instead of source replacement…again, I’m not inclined to continue experimenting to the detriment of my AC. I’m convinced my Yamaha2000iS just isn’t the generator for the job

[Itinerant1]

How are you seeing a 400a draw, are you catching the locked rotor draw?

When I run the A/C off of batteries I can see 190a draw for a second as the microair slowly spools up.