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Mike134

Elgin, IL

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Posted: 07/25/21 05:34pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

larry cad wrote:

CA Traveler wrote:

The extension cord is only one part. There could be a problem with the pedestal plug, the RV cord or wiring or for some reason the RV frame or other metal parts are not grounded.

Furthermore both the hot and neutral should be isolated from ground in the RV and reverse polarity doesn't change that.


You may want to rethink your premise! "RV frame or other metal parts" not "grounded" are typically because the neutral and hot wires are reversed. disagree Keep in mind a properly installed neutral wire is always grounded at the main panel. And ONLY at the main panel never sub panels and certainly never in the RV panel If the neutral wire is properly installed, the RV frame and metal parts are GROUNDED! No the green grounding wire is what grounds the RV metal. If the neutral wire is not properly installed, such as reversed polarity, the frame is probably NOT grounded and in this case, the hot wire is probably connected to the frame. The OP has to find the reversed polarity hot and neutral wires.

With a properly installed hot and neutral wiring system, the green ground wire is redundant, meaning it is not necessary for a safe, grounded system. It is an additional safety measure, not the primary one.


I put some notes in red. Without a green wire you do not have a safe grounded system. That is exactly why the National Electrical code does not permit electricians to replace old 2 slot receptacle's with 3 slot outlets UNLESS a ground wire or metal conduit system is present.

Think about the hot and neutral wires as they are used throughout your house and RV. They are insulated from each other and contained in an insulated outer jacket (Romex) At no point will you find the white wire connected to the metal frame of any piece of equipment (In 1996 the National electrical code no longer permitted the neutral to be used for grounding the frame of a range or dryer)

* This post was edited 07/25/21 05:54pm by Mike134 *


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Bobbo

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Posted: 07/25/21 07:46pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Mike134 wrote:

That is exactly why the National Electrical code does not permit electricians to replace old 2 slot receptacle's with 3 slot outlets UNLESS a ground wire or metal conduit system is present.

I may be wrong, but I thought it was OK to replace a 2 pin outlet with a 3 pin outlet without adding a ground wire as long as it is then labeled "NOT GROUNDED." I am also pretty sure it is approved to replace a 2 pin outlet with a GFCI outlet without adding a ground wire.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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Mike134

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Posted: 07/25/21 08:05pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bobbo wrote:

Mike134 wrote:

That is exactly why the National Electrical code does not permit electricians to replace old 2 slot receptacle's with 3 slot outlets UNLESS a ground wire or metal conduit system is present.

I may be wrong, but I thought it was OK to replace a 2 pin outlet with a 3 pin outlet without adding a ground wire as long as it is then labeled "NOT GROUNDED." I am also pretty sure it is approved to replace a 2 pin outlet with a GFCI outlet without adding a ground wire.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Your very close to being correct, you can replace a 2 slot outlet with a 3 slot GFI without adding the ground wire but you must also label the GFI "not Grounded". You cannot just switch from 2 slot to 3 and add a label must be a GFI.

I am an Electrician 38 years now retired.

enblethen

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Posted: 07/25/21 08:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The only place that an RV frame and body gets grounded is through the green wire in the shore power cord. The neutral is not tied to ground in the rig.


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CharlesinGA

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Posted: 07/25/21 11:59pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

An RV is nothing more than an electric subpanel. You carry hot(s), neutral, and ground to the RV's panel.

If the OP's house receptacle tests properly and has all three wires properly connected (thus testing properly). then (and only after the proper GFCI has been installed) plug in the extension cord that was used, and test it, If the tester still shows OK, then hook up the adapter and the RV and use the tester on the RV's various outlets to test each one of them.

Then start looking for individual items that can cause a hot ground. My bet is the 120v heating element in the fridge (if turned on), as they can easily short to ground, or the water heater if turned on using 120v.

Just recently I read a thread (cannot remember what forum however) that the OP had discovered a hot skin condition and traced it to the 120v heating element in the fridge. He replaced the heater element and installed a plug in GFCI in the outlet behind the fridge and plugged the fridge into it. I'm not sure I advocate doing this however, as GFCIs are electronic and mechanical devices and the vibration of going down the road can cause the GFCI to trip, and then your fridge won't cool and you don't realize it until its too late.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Wall-Adapter-GFCI-04-00106/303137134

[image]

Note: should you happen to purchase this particular unit, the instructions refer to a "light" that comes on when it trips. It is not a light at all, but rather a red flag that appears in the tiny clear window on the unit above the buttons.

Charles

* This post was edited 07/26/21 12:05am by CharlesinGA *


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larry cad

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Posted: 07/26/21 04:47am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bobbo wrote:

Mike134 wrote:

That is exactly why the National Electrical code does not permit electricians to replace old 2 slot receptacle's with 3 slot outlets UNLESS a ground wire or metal conduit system is present.

I may be wrong, but I thought it was OK to replace a 2 pin outlet with a 3 pin outlet without adding a ground wire as long as it is then labeled "NOT GROUNDED." I am also pretty sure it is approved to replace a 2 pin outlet with a GFCI outlet without adding a ground wire.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Bobbo, you are exactly correct.


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larry cad

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Posted: 07/26/21 05:14am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Mike134 wrote:

Bobbo wrote:

Mike134 wrote:

That is exactly why the National Electrical code does not permit electricians to replace old 2 slot receptacle's with 3 slot outlets UNLESS a ground wire or metal conduit system is present.

I may be wrong, but I thought it was OK to replace a 2 pin outlet with a 3 pin outlet without adding a ground wire as long as it is then labeled "NOT GROUNDED." I am also pretty sure it is approved to replace a 2 pin outlet with a GFCI outlet without adding a ground wire.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Your very close to being correct, you can replace a 2 slot outlet with a 3 slot GFI without adding the ground wire but you must also label the GFI "not Grounded". You cannot just switch from 2 slot to 3 and add a label must be a GFI.

I am an Electrician 38 years now retired.


Mike134, you too are "very close", because you forgot to mention that a two prong receptacle can be replaced with a three prong receptacle and protected with a GFCI BREAKER! That too is allowed by code.

And I'll see your "Electrician 38 years", and raise you by "Electrician 44 year, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer"

By the way, the code section regarding our discussion is 406.4(D)(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles, however, there are (as usual) additional sections that must be referenced as well.

Mike134

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Posted: 07/26/21 06:55am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

larry cad wrote:

Mike134 wrote:

Bobbo wrote:

Mike134 wrote:

That is exactly why the National Electrical code does not permit electricians to replace old 2 slot receptacle's with 3 slot outlets UNLESS a ground wire or metal conduit system is present.

I may be wrong, but I thought it was OK to replace a 2 pin outlet with a 3 pin outlet without adding a ground wire as long as it is then labeled "NOT GROUNDED." I am also pretty sure it is approved to replace a 2 pin outlet with a GFCI outlet without adding a ground wire.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Your very close to being correct, you can replace a 2 slot outlet with a 3 slot GFI without adding the ground wire but you must also label the GFI "not Grounded". You cannot just switch from 2 slot to 3 and add a label must be a GFI.

I am an Electrician 38 years now retired.


Mike134, you too are "very close", because you forgot to mention that a two prong receptacle can be replaced with a three prong receptacle and protected with a GFCI BREAKER! That too is allowed by code.

And I'll see your "Electrician 38 years", and raise you by "Electrician 44 year, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer"

By the way, the code section regarding our discussion is 406.4(D)(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles, however, there are (as usual) additional sections that must be referenced as well.


Yep you got me......but they would need to be sure that the breaker they are changing is not part of a multi-wire branch circuit. That's why it's always better to change to a GFI at the point of use for the average handyman.

You may find this link helpful if you ever need to check codes from various years it cover the most recent all the way back to 1968. It's a free access.
https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70

mr_andyj

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Posted: 07/26/21 10:14am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have a panel out of a 1971 camper.
The neutral is grounded at the panel. The neutral is grounded, as many are saying yet others somehow want to disagree with such facts...

What some here are saying is that this code has changed and now the neutral is not supposed to be grounded at the panel?

Should the neutral be un-grounded and let the neutral ground effect take place at the house panel, not the caper panel? Would this help eliminate some possible issues with reverse hot skin?

Mike134

Elgin, IL

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Posted: 07/26/21 10:24am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

mr_andyj wrote:

I have a panel out of a 1971 camper.
The neutral is grounded at the panel. The neutral is grounded, as many are saying yet others somehow want to disagree with such facts...

What some here are saying is that this code has changed and now the neutral is not supposed to be grounded at the panel?

Should the neutral be un-grounded and let the neutral ground effect take place at the house panel, not the caper panel? Would this help eliminate some possible issues with reverse hot skin?


My history with the code only goes back to 1981 and back then the neutral was only bonded (connected) one time at the incoming service to the ground wire/ground rod/waterpipe.

Not sure if it was ever permitted further "downstream" in older versions of the code. That said I have run across electricians with 45+ years of experience and they still screw up today and connect the neutral to the metal circuit breaker enclosure even though it's a sub panel (like your RV panel)

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