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 > Tires - To Sipe or Not to Sipe Toyo M154s

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valhalla360

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Posted: 11/01/21 05:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

KendallP wrote:

toedtoes wrote:

I'm not missing the point. I just don't see why anyone would consider this....

...If the tires are not appropriate or satisfactory for the vehicle/conditions, then siping will not make them suddenly appropriate or satisfactory. The only solution for that is to replace them with different tires.

If the Michelin tires are siped by the manufacturer, then I would contact them and ask why they need to sipe them before making a decision. If they are siped aftermarket but before purchase, then I would not buy from that shop.

I guess I thought the point was clear.

The Michelins... are the OEM. And the OEM tread. They are siped.

BUT... they are known to be of poor quality. And not because of the siping.

The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. But they are not the same tire... nor tread... as the OEM. They are really a commercial steer / trailer tire. Great for steers. But less than ideal for drives.

There is no ideal choice here. There is no "solution... to replace them (the Toyos) with different tires." The unique size leaves fewer than usual options. One can have a "best" solution without it being an ideal one.
.


Who are these people you keep referring to? The average MH owner has little to no knowledge of tire design...so your assertions regarding quality are suspect to begin with.

I stand by my original statement that if it was needed, the manufacturer would provide it.


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Blaster Man

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Posted: 11/01/21 08:40am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

LouLawrence wrote:

No siping. Run the tire the way it was designed.


Agree, not necessary.


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KendallP

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Posted: 11/01/21 12:01pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

Who are these people you keep referring to? The average MH owner has little to no knowledge of tire design...so your assertions regarding quality are suspect to begin with.

I stand by my original statement that if it was needed, the manufacturer would provide it.

1. I was not talking about design. There a tons of reports, here and other sites, of very early sidewall checking on the Michelins, despite very little UV exposure. I don't know where you got that MH owners are critiquing the design. They're simply reporting what happened to their OEM tires. Perhaps Michelin has solved that problem. If more owners hadn't felt burned by Michelin, I'm sure more of them would have stuck with the OEM tires to find out.

2. The manufacturer designed the Toyos to be best suited as steers. If you go to the webpage for these tires, you will see them "Recommended" as steers and "Suitable" as drives.

And if you click "Drive" tires, "22.5" on the same Toyo website, you will not see the M154 model listed.

The problem is, Toyo doesn't have a drive tire anywhere near the same size as the OEM. Nor does anyone else that I could find.

The Toyo M154s are very close in size to the OEM. The speedometer might run a mile or two off at 60 mph. Yokohama makes one that guys seem to like and a few other manufacturers do as well. I believe I was able to find 6 brands / models. My research indicates that the majority of owners have opted for these Toyos.

So partly because the OEM tires were a proprietary size, the Toyos are considered by many owners of Freightliner DPs... that came with the Michelin tire in question... to be one of the best options for replacement of the OEM tire that was known to have premature checking issues.

And yes. I respect your decision to stand by your statement. Hopefully that means we can both move on.

Cheers


Cheers,
Kendall

KendallP

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Posted: 11/01/21 12:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Blaster Man wrote:

LouLawrence wrote:

No siping. Run the tire the way it was designed.


Agree, not necessary.

Thank you for weighing in. This was my conclusion as well.

KendallP

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Posted: 11/01/21 01:24pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rgatijnet1 wrote:

Since the siping on the Michelin tire picture is curved/angled in the top picture it certainly looks like it was molded rather than someone taking a heat knife and cutting uniform angle cuts along the edge. Way too labor intensive for production tires.

That's what I've been thinking.

The point here is... they appear to have opted for some kind of siping... that looks a bit like aftermarket siping... for these tires targetting the motorhome market.

The question is, should one consider trying to mimic that with aftermarket siping... if... like many... you are not confident in the OEM Michelins... and you know there are very few options for replacement of this proprietary tire size.

As I've mentioned, prior to writing the OP, I had opted to leave well enough alone. I just don't see enough legitimate evidence that it's helpful. Plenty of anecdotes. But little real evidence.

Perhaps with the siping, the Michelins may offer better wet, snow and ice traction. Who knows. But the channels in the Toyos ARE deeper... which is certainly a plus in the rain.

As an aside... I believe there haven't been any recent studies on aftermarket siping because... so many mud, snow and all-season tires already come chock full of sipes. So the motivation to run expensive tests is very low.

This thread marks a very unique situation... which was always the point... where there really aren't well-siped options for this unique tire size beyond the flawed OEM.

Thanks for weighing in.

toedtoes

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Posted: 11/01/21 02:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

KendallP wrote:




The point here is... they appear to have opted for some kind of siping... that looks a bit like aftermarket siping... for these tires targetting the motorhome market.

The question is, should one consider trying to mimic that with aftermarket siping... if... like many... you are not confident in the OEM Michelins... and you know there are very few options for replacement of this proprietary tire size.



No, on should not try to mimic the Michelin patterns.

The Michelin tire already has that siping done PRE-market. For whatever reason, they feel it is good for THEIR tire. If you buy their tire, you get the siping.

The Toyo tires are NOT the michelin tires minus the siping. They were developed and manufactured independently of the Michelin tires. So trying to reproduce the siping of the Michelin onto the Toyo is ignoring all the development that Toyo put into their product. You would be wrongly assuming that because Michelin siped their tires that any tire put on the MH should be siped.

That you have voiced several times a dissatisfaction with the Michelin tires, just makes all this seem silly. Why would you even consider trying to duplicate a tire of which you think so poorly?


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KendallP

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Posted: 11/01/21 02:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

toedtoes wrote:

That you have voiced several times a dissatisfaction with the Michelin tires, just makes all this seem silly. Why would you even consider trying to duplicate a tire of which you think so poorly?

Not the tread design, nor the ride, the grip or the noise. But the durability. I have voiced that several times in this thread, as well. One need only look as far as the OP to read, "...these particular Michelins have a very poor reputation for early sidewall cracking and such."

Here again... the Toyos were not designed to target the motorhome market. They're website lists them as "Recommended" for steers and "Suitable" for drives... on commercial vehicles. They happen to come in a rare size that compares to the OEM tires and many owners have reported much satisfaction with them... including the prior owner of the subject rig.

The Michelin website makes it clear that the XRV is targeted to the motorhome market. One could only assume that means they are meant to be "Recommended" as both steer and drive tires. Perhaps the siping has something to do with this? I don't know.

Anyone reading through this thread is probably sick of seeing me repeat all this by now.

And it doesn't matter. My decision not to sipe was all but made before I started the thread. I've made that clear, as well. I asked for opinions... because I felt this was a unique case... and I think I've got yours.

Thanks for weighing in.
.

* This post was edited 11/01/21 03:30pm by KendallP *

KendallP

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Posted: 11/01/21 03:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

I actually had used tires sipped at LS, they were about 50% tread and had poor wet traction. I had them sipped and far less tire spin on take off.

Of course this is anecdotal, but you appear to have had some very noticeable benefit from the siping. Perhaps it wouldn't have helped when new, but it obviously did down the road, as it were.

Thanks for weighing in.

valhalla360

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Posted: 11/02/21 02:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

KendallP wrote:

1. I was not talking about design. There a tons of reports, here and other sites, of very early sidewall checking on the Michelins, despite very little UV exposure. I don't know where you got that MH owners are critiquing the design. They're simply reporting what happened to their OEM tires. Perhaps Michelin has solved that problem. If more owners hadn't felt burned by Michelin, I'm sure more of them would have stuck with the OEM tires to find out.

2. The manufacturer designed the Toyos to be best suited as steers. If you go to the webpage for these tires, you will see them "Recommended" as steers and "Suitable" as drives.

And if you click "Drive" tires, "22.5" on the same Toyo website, you will not see the M154 model listed.

The problem is, Toyo doesn't have a drive tire anywhere near the same size as the OEM. Nor does anyone else that I could find.


You were the one indicating it was MH owners. Quote: The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements.

Lots of comments are just as likely a result of them being a commonly available model. If 1% of people complain, you will have far more complaints from a tire that sells 100,000/yr vs one that sells 20,000/yr. You yourself, indicated the Michelin was a popular tire for this application.

If Toyo says they are "suitable" as drive tires, they are suitable.

If you think you know better than the manufacturer, go for it.

KendallP

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Posted: 11/02/21 09:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Responses in blue below...

valhalla360 wrote:

You were the one indicating it was MH owners. Quote: The Toyos are considered to be (by motorhome owners)... one of the best replacements. Yes. And?

Lots of comments are just as likely a result of them being a commonly available model. If 1% of people complain, you will have far more complaints from a tire that sells 100,000/yr vs one that sells 20,000/yr. You yourself, indicated the Michelin was a popular tire for this application. When? They came with the rigs. And I said there were only 3 reviews on Tire Rack... with the first review in 2011... meaning they've likely been for sale on that site for at least 10 years. That doesn't ring as very popular to me.

If Toyo says they are "suitable" as drive tires, they are suitable. "Suitable?" Yes. "Recommended?" No.

If you think you know better than the manufacturer, go for it. As stated many times... I don't. And I'm not planning on siping the tires.

Thanks for weighing in.

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