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3 tons

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Posted: 11/20/21 11:12pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

“ The vid is total FUD aka fake news against EVs and wont change anything.
Future is electric.”

Fair enough, but there’s really no free lunch…Consider Lithium mining, eh?…Thank goodness that we have sufficient domestic hydrocarbon resources to generate wholesale quantities of electricity to help fuel EV’s…And, this additional EV contribution to the carbon reservoir will assist at greening the planet by preventing a carbon dioxide drought (a critical fertilizer without which, at 180ppm plants won’t grow!!)…BTW, U.S. oil ‘producers’ (not refiners) don’t actually get subsidies - what they do get are investment tax credits (a temporary tax off-set) for the uber risk associated with oil exploration (e.g. ‘production’ activities)…As far as CA is concerned, I can’t be certain, but for Alberta’s part my guess is they are possibly a self-supporting Province (I donno?)…As far as these dreaded wars go, I can’t agree enough, however (though quite capable…) I don’t once recall a single incident where the ‘Pirating’ of any M.E. or Venezuelan oil ever occurred, but that’s just me…

I truly do admire the marvel of EV technology, but (back on topic) find the narrative surrounding a lower ‘net’ carbon footprint misleading while empirically unproven…

3 tons

valhalla360

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Posted: 11/21/21 12:59am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Quite misleading.

....

There are at least 2 Bev's that have integrated solar panels. For my own particular use pattern, I would essentially never have to plug in unless I were on a trip of over 300 miles.


True, slapping solar panels on a car provides almost no useful range, while adding weight, cost and carbon costs


I would not call 21 miles per day "no useful range". I live in a small city. Heck, I don't even drive every day.

Sion from Sono.

The Lightyear one provides 450 miles of total range, and about 30 to 40 miles of solar range per day (in the summer, just to be fair).


So if they get it up to 75% efficient panel, you would have a point.

Lightyear one has a projected (probably come in higher if they ever go into production) of $170k...cheaper to just pay for a charge. Certainly not a practical solution. Haven't seen independent testing to confirm their claims.

As said, if you only need a couple miles per day, it's viable but that meets the needs of very few people...also, you aren't eliminating hardly any oil consumption, since you weren't consuming any to begin with.


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valhalla360

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Posted: 11/21/21 01:02am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

Many or most states charge the road tax to the registration. I assume the rest will soon follow.
Never mind carbon, I want clean air. Yes the utilities are still in transition to solar and wind. Great progress has been made in 50 years. With any luck progress to cleaner air will continue.


Most states severely undercharge EVs for roads.

On a side note:

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrEwhWg_JlhP7gAoR9XNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1637510432/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.wired.com%2fstory%2fnorway-electric-vehicle-tax%2f/RK=2/RS=Dalktgj50RXbid1x4tycIkxp8p4-

Norway has been at the lead subsidizing EVs and they are running into a problem...of course, they would be a poor backwater if they didn't sell massive amounts of that nasty oil. They are the highest producers per capita in the world.

Timmo!

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Posted: 11/21/21 06:53am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:


So what is recycled on an ice?

Happily, the answer is yes for a Bev -- the batteries that power electric cars can be recycled.

Source: https://auto.howstuffworks.com/can-electric-car-batteries-be-recycled.htm


Ahem, that bit of info is from 2011....about a decade ago.

Here is something published about a year ago---

And remember, we don't know...what we don't know.

...With the development of electric vehicles involving lithium ion batteries as energy storage devices, the demand for lithium ion batteries in the whole industry is increasing, which is bound to lead to a large number of lithium ion batteries in the problem of waste, recycling and reuse. If not handled properly, it will certainly have a negative impact on the environment and resources....

The Methods of Recovering Lithium Ion Batteries

Recycling for LIBs usually involves both physical and chemical processes (Harper et al., 2019). Due to the complex assembly process of LIBs and the wide variety of electrodes, it brings great danger for the recovery of battery. The explosion, combustion and poisonous gas brought on the recovery process are easy to cause casualties. To reduce this risk, spent LIBs usually need to be discharged before recycled. Physical processes usually include pretreatment and direct recovery of electrode materials. These processes usually include disassembly, crushing, screening, magnetic separation, washing, heating treatment, etc. Chemical processes can be divided into pyrometallurgical and hydrometallurgical processes, which usually involve leaching, separation, extraction and chemical/electrochemical precipitation.


BTW, the pyrometallurgical process requires furnace temps excess of 700 degrees Celsius (about 1300 degrees Fahrenheit)...which will require the input of fossil fuels.

Can we agree on this point....BEV battery recycling industry is still in it's infancy (we don't know what we don't know) and the current process is environmentally dirty.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fchem.2020.578044/full

pianotuna

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Posted: 11/21/21 08:27am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

As said, if you only need a couple miles per day, it's viable but that meets the needs of very few people...also, you aren't eliminating hardly any oil consumption, since you weren't consuming any to begin with.


Sono:
21 - 3 = 18 miles unused

214 /18 =~ 12 days to fully charge


Lightyear one
40 - 3 = 37 miles unused

450 / 37 =~ 12 days to fully charge

Since 2012 I've only driven 45000 miles (in the car). I did loan the car to a friend for 5 years when ever I was traveling, snowbirding and full time. That friend probably drove 25000 of those miles, but here are the figures assuming I drove them all myself.

45000 / 9 / 366 =~14 miles per day. So either of these vehicles would almost never require charging at my location. Sono 21-14 = 7; 214/ 7 =~31 days to fully charge. Lightyear one 40-14=26; 450/26 =~17 days to fully charge.

How many sun free days could be accommodated? Sono 214/ 14 =~15 days; Lightyear one 450 /14 =~32 days.

Both cars meet and exceed my maximum required range (180 miles). The Sono Sion cost is about $33,000.00 usd. The lightyear one is about $175,000.00


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 11/21/21 08:32am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

+1 for making the Middle East irrelevant. Possibly Russia too.


They WERE....


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pianotuna

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Posted: 11/21/21 08:48am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo,

We can agree that our society needs to reuse and recycle.

One of my cell phones is from 2015, the other from 2017. Both still have good battery life. The one from 2017 doesn't have a user replaceable battery.

I applaud the few RV's who are using repurposed EV batteries for their house banks.

Smelting aluminum is often done with power from hydroelectric plants. I think the temperature is about 1200 c (2192 f).

Timmo!

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Posted: 11/21/21 09:33am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Timmo,

We can agree that our society needs to reuse and recycle.

One of my cell phones is from 2015, the other from 2017. Both still have good battery life. The one from 2017 doesn't have a user replaceable battery.

I applaud the few RV's who are using repurposed EV batteries for their house banks.

Smelting aluminum is often done with power from hydroelectric plants. I think the temperature is about 1200 c (2192 f).


Yep, smelting is not an environmentally clean process (who would buy a house next to a smelting plant?). Of course sourcing all electrical generation from hydro plants would be nice ending to this fairy tale story, but it is not practical. How many more hydro dams can be built on the Colorado River? None is what my people tell me.

Imagine the challenge of shipping expired BEV lithium batteries from Hawaii to the wastelands of Nevada (USA's hub for destructive open pit lithium mining and battery production operations). You know the pristine area near the Oregon and Nevada border where several Indian tribes also call home, known as Thacker Pass. Imagine all the hazmat (expired batteries) being shipped by rail for recovery.

Is the current plan to let someone else in the future solve this riddle? If so, remember what happened to nuke waste.....like I said, some of us old folks have seen this movie before (including the B&W and the updated Technicolor version).

pianotuna

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Posted: 11/21/21 09:38am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo,

We agree on the Nuclear waste. I've spent hours this week asking what the powers that be will do with the waste from the proposed SNR program slated to start in 2029 in Saskatchewan. I feel as if I'm playing "whack a mole".

time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 11/21/21 10:13am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

+1 for making the Middle East irrelevant. Possibly Russia too.


They WERE....
Yes we spent tons of money defending and controlling the Middle East and tons preparing for the Russian attack.
Maybe if these costs could be cut and used to build and maintain our roads in our country this would be win-win.

Ever wonder why the Middle East hates us? Sooner we are OUT the better.


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