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 > 12 volt battery question please

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pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 12/17/21 02:34pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

~DJ~ so long as the batteries are charged it is better for them to be cold. It slows down self discharge about 50% for every 18 F (10 C) the ambient temperature drops.

Gdetrailer AGM do about six times better than FLA in the cold.


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Gdetrailer

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Posted: 12/17/21 03:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

~DJ~ so long as the batteries are charged it is better for them to be cold. It slows down self discharge about 50% for every 18 F (10 C) the ambient temperature drops.

Gdetrailer AGM do about six times better than FLA in the cold.


AGM will lose less capacity in the cold but it does have some shortcomings like higher upfront price, a bit lower Ahr capacity for the same given cu inches of space and has a few bad habits of gel cells on top of that to deal with and for good measure if overcharged high and long enough will breach the popoff valve and vent out what little precious electrolyte liquid it contains rendering it a very expensive doorstop.

Good note on AGMs is they typically do not off gas unless totally abused which means if you really must, they can be put inside your living area.

I have a bunch of UPS units around my house, they all came equipped with AGM instead of Gel cells, life of AGMs in "standby use" is far shorter than Gel cells. Older UPS units which came with Gelcells battery life was 5-6 yrs, the newer units equipped with AGMs I end up changing out 2-3 yrs..

Gets downright expensive after a while replacing AGMs.. So much so, have considered dumping the standalone UPS units, adding a dedicated Triplite APS series inverter/charger and yes, a pair of 6V FLA GC2s.. I can setup the GC2s/inverter/charger in a separate garage where my whole house gen lives and run inverter only power back to a couple of dedicated outlets.. Instead of needing to replace $60-$100 worth of AGMs every 2-3 yrs I would now have 10+ yrs of battery life.

Call me cheap, but dang those little wimpy AGMs hurt the wallet.

Trackrig

Spent the summer in Conconuly, Wa, MH now in Vanco

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Posted: 12/17/21 05:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I'm in Alaska and I never remove my batteries for either my MH, TT, or hunting rigs. Charge them up, take the battery cables off of them and they'll be just fine. My batteries have been through a lot of -40F winters. And on the hunting rigs they only ever get started and used during Sept. The batteries avg 7 - 8 years.

Bill


Nodwell RN110 out moose hunting. 4-53 Detroit, Clark 5 spd, 40" wide tracks, 10:00x20 tires, 16,000# capacity, 22,000# weight. You know the mud is getting deep when it's coming in the doors.


~DJ~

Boise, Idaho

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Posted: 12/17/21 06:45pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OK, thanks everyone!! That saves me some work and some $$!! [emoticon]


'17 Class C 22' Conquest on Ford E 450 with V 10. 4000 Onan, Quad 6 volt AGMs, 515 watts solar.
'12 Northstar Liberty on a '16 Super Duty 6.2. Twin 6 volt AGMs with 300 watts solar.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 12/18/21 12:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

I have a bunch of UPS units around my house, they all came equipped with AGM instead of Gel cells, life of AGMs in "standby use" is far shorter than Gel cells. Older UPS units which came with Gelcells battery life was 5-6 yrs, the newer units equipped with AGMs I end up changing out 2-3 yrs..

Gets downright expensive after a while replacing AGMs.. So much so, have considered dumping the standalone UPS units, adding a dedicated Triplite APS series inverter/charger and yes, a pair of 6V FLA GC2s.. I can setup the GC2s/inverter/charger in a separate garage where my whole house gen lives and run inverter only power back to a couple of dedicated outlets.. Instead of needing to replace $60-$100 worth of AGMs every 2-3 yrs I would now have 10+ yrs of battery life.

Call me cheap, but dang those little wimpy AGMs hurt the wallet.


SiO2 are pretty much the same price as AGM's and ought to last a lot longer.

wa8yxm

Davison Michigan (East of Flint)

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Posted: 12/18/21 04:55am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

I have a bunch of UPS units around my house, they all came equipped with AGM instead of Gel cells, life of AGMs in "standby use" is far shorter than Gel cells. Older UPS units which came with Gelcells battery life was 5-6 yrs, the newer units equipped with AGMs I end up changing out 2-3 yrs..


I have used both AGM and GEL and I've seen others
Gel is the finikiest eater of any battery out there. You need to be very very very careful charging them.. AGM's on the other hand are gluttons. you can feed them fast enough to "Choke a horse"

(From Xantrex and Lifeline,
Regular Lead acid should be charged 0.30C or slower (C is capacity in amp hours at the 20 hour rate so a 100 amp hour battery eats no more than 30 amps)

Gel 0.25C

Agm.. over 0.2 C used to be 0.3 C but they lowered it And top charge rate easily 2x the minimum (Note with AGM we changed from MAX to MIN charge rate)

I've seen AGM's go 12 years.. I've had 'em last 5, I've never had a gel make it to 2 ANd that was in a system specifically designed to use GEL batteries.


Home was where I park it. but alas the.
2005 Damon Intruder 377 Alas declared a total loss
after a semi "nicked" it. Still have the radios
Kenwood TS-2000, ICOM ID-5100, ID-51A+2, ID-880 REF030C most times


Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 12/18/21 03:31pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wa8yxm wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

I have a bunch of UPS units around my house, they all came equipped with AGM instead of Gel cells, life of AGMs in "standby use" is far shorter than Gel cells. Older UPS units which came with Gelcells battery life was 5-6 yrs, the newer units equipped with AGMs I end up changing out 2-3 yrs..


I have used both AGM and GEL and I've seen others
Gel is the finikiest eater of any battery out there. You need to be very very very careful charging them.. AGM's on the other hand are gluttons. you can feed them fast enough to "Choke a horse"

(From Xantrex and Lifeline,
Regular Lead acid should be charged 0.30C or slower (C is capacity in amp hours at the 20 hour rate so a 100 amp hour battery eats no more than 30 amps)

Gel 0.25C

Agm.. over 0.2 C used to be 0.3 C but they lowered it And top charge rate easily 2x the minimum (Note with AGM we changed from MAX to MIN charge rate)

I've seen AGM's go 12 years.. I've had 'em last 5, I've never had a gel make it to 2 ANd that was in a system specifically designed to use GEL batteries.


I have three UPS units which came equipped with AGM batteries, I CAN assure you, AGMs do not ALWAYS last or are better than the older UPSs that had Gel cells.. As I mentioned, the UPS units I have with AGMs only get 2-3 yrs of service, IF I am lucky, my older UPS units which came with Gel cells typically get 5-6 yrs..

Not to mention a company I worked for had built a mobile computerized product for industrial use in 24/7/365 environment.. The engineers decided on AGMs instead of Gel cells, equipped with a charger designed exclusively for AGMs.. The onboard computer also had a battery monitor interface that allowed the computer let user know when the device needed to be plugged in to charge.

That product was a total flop due to the battery.. Our Service department sent out replacement batteries like they were Tic-Tacs.. But they were not as cheap as Tic-Tacs at $150 per battery with only 24 Ahr capacity.. Gel cell of same capacity would have only cost $50 and lasted just as long or even longer..

And by the way, I have seen bloated AGMs, you CAN feed them TOO MUCH at one time.

Nothing special about AGMs, they share very similar traits to a Gel cell as both are electrolyte starved system. Both AGM and Gel cells tend to suddenly fall off the cliff and die without any signs of failing. One day they work and the next 100% stone dead.. FLAs do not do that, they typically will give you warnings of reduced capacity.

I also worked with another industrial device which used Lithium batteries.. Yeah the stories I wished I could tell of those.. We had to stock hundreds of those batteries and I was the poor sap that had to deal with repairing/refurbing/reloading/replacing those devices..

The batteries were great up to the point that the BMS failed and cut off the battery power for no reason causing a lot of battery replacements..

Then there was those batteries with BMS failures that failed in a different way, shorting out the battery causing the device to overheat enough to give a few customers severe burns.. Needless to say, company withdrew that product and canned the entire project.

I have a huge respect for those batteries, when they work they are nice, but when they fail, the results are less than pretty.

3 tons

NV.

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Posted: 12/20/21 08:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ANY Battery can be defective, or prematurely die a natural death, but at least with LFP’s some come with a ten (or even 11year) warranty….I admit this is purely anecdotal, but when my comparatively pricy 18 mo old single 200a/h LFP for some reason developed a premature shut-down at 20% SOC, it was simply replaced under warranty with no questions asked…I load tested the replacement and it’s actual capacity was at 215a/hrs….Bottom line is there’s just no certainties in life, but reputation often matters - “you just gotta pick your own poison” - lol

3 tons

Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 12/21/21 12:55pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

3 tons wrote:

ANY Battery can be defective, or prematurely die a natural death, but at least with LFP’s some come with a ten (or even 11year) warranty….I admit this is purely anecdotal, but when my comparatively pricy 18 mo old single 200a/h LFP for some reason developed a premature shut-down at 20% SOC, it was simply replaced under warranty with no questions asked…I load tested the replacement and it’s actual capacity was at 215a/hrs….Bottom line is there’s just no certainties in life, but reputation often matters - “you just gotta pick your own poison” - lol

3 tons


Everything has "defects", just some defects never fully show up and some when they pop up can have rather interesting results.

As you say, pick your poison..

Spent my last 22 yrs of work life building, setting up highly computerized electro mechanical robotic equipment in an industrial 24/7/365 use environment.

Most everything designed for a consumer use is designed around 8 hrs per day average. In industrial 24/7/365 use, we use stuff at an accelerated rate, basically using up the life of equipment three times faster than a average consumer.

Ran into that issue when a system board manufacturer gave us a quote of 5 yrs average life on a system board.. They quoted that thinking that it was going to be used for a single 8 hr shift per day.. Our purchasing department thought it was warrantied for 5 yrs for 24/7/365 use.. A lot of red faces after the system boards started failing after only 2 yrs of use and no warranty from the manufacturer once they realized we were using it 24/7/365..

There IS a reason why equipment designed mainly for industrial use cost as much as 5 times more than ones slated for Consumers..

From my work experience which did involve AGMs and Lithium batteries I have seen good and bad with both. From some of the bad especially with Lithium batteries I have a real healthy respect for what they CAN do in case of something goes sideways in either a defect or abuse. Doesn't matter either way, they pack a lot of energy in that little package which when it goes sideways can result in one large amount of heat being released in short order.

I don't sleep with a phone in my pocket, under a pillow, in bed. I don't leave phones lay on materials that easily can spread a fire. I don't expose my cellphone to hard shock and try to avoid dropping it on concrete or drop it in water as I have seen what happens to even industrial ruggedized Lithium batteries.. Heck, my cellphone when at home lives on a non flammable surface when I am not using it..

Treat them with respect.

3 tons

NV.

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Posted: 12/21/21 02:08pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Thanks for relating to us your sage experience and appropriate safety cavet…Though I believe that LFP’s are considerably safer than higher power density phone batteries (likely because of LFP’s lacking cobalt chemistry) there’s little doubt that lithium types are a different animal… When doing a true load test on my replacement 200a/h LFP cylindrical-cell drop-in, I was made acutely aware of this when once ‘confirmed’ to be at zero percent rated SOC, I decided to switch on the microwave oven to see what might happen and was amazed that it ran perfectly while drawing a whopping 136 (or slightly more) d.c. amps at zero SOC!! - CRAZY!! Turns out that this battery didn’t come to a stop until at 215 consumed a/hrs…FWIW, I have no idea whether this is typical of other drop-ins (??), but YES an altogether different kind of animal indeed…

3 tons

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