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RoyJ

Vancouver, BC

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Posted: 12/22/21 03:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

thomas201 wrote:

All of the cost comparisons are flawed. None take into account the time value of money. I think Internal Rate of Return (aka Discounted Cashflow Rate of Return) is best. Net Present Value, is OK.

What you bought it for, what you sold it for, and every last cent you spent on the truck are needed, along with miles and duty cycle. This is the metric that companies use to determine gas or diesel for their fleets. And most light duty trucks are gas and heavy duty are diesel, with a gray area in the middle, for sound money reasons.


Nailed it. Modern diesels are desired for performance, not lower lifetime cost.

Proof? Look at how many fleet vehicles, from parcel delivery to 30k lbs school buses, are transitioning to gas. A business's only interest is cost, and many business managers have crunched the initial purchase + maintenance + fuel - resale math, gas must have came up on top.

We're enthusiasts, and can justify the pleasure of diesel performance against probability of a high pressure fuel system failure or $$$ emissions repair. A business can't.

Lantley

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Posted: 12/22/21 05:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

That's sort of a flawed perspective. Businesses that need a diesel will buy a diesel. All the hot shotters are using diesels.
You do not see guys who criss cross the country in pick ups hauling goods using gas powered trucks.
Yes guys doing local business may use gas trucks, but in general those trucks are carrying smaller loads and not traveling as far. AS aresult the diesel advantage is less important vs. those that need to maximise performance from thier vehicles


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msmith1.wa

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Posted: 12/22/21 10:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

frankwp wrote:

I'll have to try driving a new diesel. When I got my 8.1 in 2003, I drove a duramax to compare and was most underwhelmed. So not worth the $$$. But that was then & this is now & things have changed big time.


You should because things have changed a lot just like you said. Back when you bought your big block it had 340 HP and the diesel had only 300 HP. 40 HP is a big difference and couple that with the instant HP feel that the gas engine gives is going to be a lot.

Nothing wrong with kicking tires.

I'm curious how heavy of a trailer you towed with your 8.1 and what kind of mileage you got while towing?


I also have an 03 8.1. It is in a Silverado. My toy hauler is a little under 10,000 lbs empty and has a gross rating of 12,900 lbs. and I am close to the max if I fill the water tanks and have all of the atv's.

I get about 6mpg towing this trailer. It is very tall for a bumper hitch rig at about 13' high per the brochure.


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JRscooby

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Posted: 12/23/21 04:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

When selling a modern diesel you will get your money back as the trucks are much more valuable than the same truck with gasser.


For years this was true. Guy buys a truck with diesel and all the available FREDs to pull his RV a dozen times a year, also gets ego massage daily. A big part of that massage is "My engine will last woofty thousand miles."* But a few years the new models are just so much flashier, so need a new truck. Somebody else knows that truck has lots of life at more reasonable price. But like as teenager I would not by a car with automatic transmission because with a manual you always had warning something was going wrong, and the Powerglide could quit at any time, cost what car was worth to fix, some of the issues with the new diesels can surprise you, and the repair cost could buy functioning truck.
*A engine that last 400,000 miles in a pickup? Now that might make sense for some, but not many. Even if you drive enough miles to wear out the motor before rust kills the truck, the other parts of the truck will be causing enough money and downtime to pay for another truck. Now if the manufactures would sell new truck w/o engine to fit a 10-20 year old engine...

* This post was edited 12/23/21 04:59am by JRscooby *

Lantley

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Posted: 12/23/21 05:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Many claim that diesels have higher maintenance cost and are complex as though gassers are foolproof with zero mechanical issues.
While I can agree diesels have become more complex, gasser are not immune from complexity. Maintenance cost are basically a wash.
When it comes to towing the equation becomes do you want the most economical method/tool or do you want the tool that delivers the better performance.
If your goal is to save $$$ at purchase time a gasser will always win, If performance is your goal a diesel will come out on top.
Keep in mind gasser savings is significant when you originally buy, but there is minimal savings from that point forward, once you begin to tow with your truck.

rhagfo

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Posted: 12/23/21 06:20am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

msmith1.wa wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

frankwp wrote:

I'll have to try driving a new diesel. When I got my 8.1 in 2003, I drove a duramax to compare and was most underwhelmed. So not worth the $$$. But that was then & this is now & things have changed big time.


You should because things have changed a lot just like you said. Back when you bought your big block it had 340 HP and the diesel had only 300 HP. 40 HP is a big difference and couple that with the instant HP feel that the gas engine gives is going to be a lot.

Nothing wrong with kicking tires.

I'm curious how heavy of a trailer you towed with your 8.1 and what kind of mileage you got while towing?


I also have an 03 8.1. It is in a Silverado. My toy hauler is a little under 10,000 lbs empty and has a gross rating of 12,900 lbs. and I am close to the max if I fill the water tanks and have all of the atv's.

I get about 6mpg towing this trailer. It is very tall for a bumper hitch rig at about 13' high per the brochure.


Well 6 mpg, compared to 10 to 12 mpg pulling the same load, that is as much as 100% better fuel mileage.
So 1,000 miles of towing, at 6 mpg would be 166.7 gallons, at 12 mpg would be 83.3 gallons. then at $3.50 per gallon 166.7 gallons would be $583.45, at 12 mpg $291.55 difference of $291.90 now the $10,000 of difference in cost for a diesel. $10,000 divided by 291.90 equals 34.25, or break even in 34,250 miles of towing.

On a side note Msmith1.wa, states Tacoma, Wa. as home so those fuel prices are true, gas and diesel in the PNW have been neck and neck for the last several years.


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JRscooby

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Posted: 12/23/21 07:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lantley wrote:

Many claim that diesels have higher maintenance cost and are complex as though gassers are foolproof with zero mechanical issues.
While I can agree diesels have become more complex, gasser are not immune from complexity. Maintenance cost are basically a wash.
When it comes to towing the equation becomes do you want the most economical method/tool or do you want the tool that delivers the better performance.
If your goal is to save $$$ at purchase time a gasser will always win, If performance is your goal a diesel will come out on top.
Keep in mind gasser savings is significant when you originally buy, but there is minimal savings from that point forward, once you begin to tow with your truck.



Back in the early days of emission controls on gas engines, they worked to clean the exhaust after combustion. This caused loss of performance and increase in fuel consumption. But in short time they started to clean the burn. Look at the numbers, if you can figure out how big a 350 CID small block is in todays numbers. My 73 Nova, would run about 8MPG 350 in 72 half ton, with nothing required but PCV, near 16. Working everyday loaded or overloaded 100%, of the time, the 71 F350 ran near 12.
So for over 25 years, gas engine emission controls have had bugs worked out. Maybe within the next few years they will work to clean the burn, instead of clean the exhaust on diesels. A few years later, the value of diesel powered pickups will be real.



rhagfo wrote:


Well 6 mpg, compared to 10 to 12 mpg pulling the same load, that is as much as 100% better fuel mileage.
So 1,000 miles of towing, at 6 mpg would be 166.7 gallons, at 12 mpg would be 83.3 gallons. then at $3.50 per gallon 166.7 gallons would be $583.45, at 12 mpg $291.55 difference of $291.90 now the $10,000 of difference in cost for a diesel. $10,000 divided by 291.90 equals 34.25, or break even in 34,250 miles of towing.

On a side note Msmith1.wa, states Tacoma, Wa. as home so those fuel prices are true, gas and diesel in the PNW have been neck and neck for the last several years.


How many miles does the average RVer tow in a year? At 5,000 miles of towing per year, your looking at over 6 years. Now when you look at RVs on the highway it doesn't look like most keep their pickups that long.

pianotuna

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Posted: 12/23/21 07:53am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

msmith1.wa wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

frankwp wrote:

I'll have to try driving a new diesel. When I got my 8.1 in 2003, I drove a duramax to compare and was most underwhelmed. So not worth the $$$. But that was then & this is now & things have changed big time.


You should because things have changed a lot just like you said. Back when you bought your big block it had 340 HP and the diesel had only 300 HP. 40 HP is a big difference and couple that with the instant HP feel that the gas engine gives is going to be a lot.

Nothing wrong with kicking tires.

I'm curious how heavy of a trailer you towed with your 8.1 and what kind of mileage you got while towing?


I also have an 03 8.1. It is in a Silverado. My toy hauler is a little under 10,000 lbs empty and has a gross rating of 12,900 lbs. and I am close to the max if I fill the water tanks and have all of the atv's.

I get about 6mpg towing this trailer. It is very tall for a bumper hitch rig at about 13' high per the brochure.


Well 6 mpg, compared to 10 to 12 mpg pulling the same load, that is as much as 100% better fuel mileage.
So 1,000 miles of towing, at 6 mpg would be 166.7 gallons, at 12 mpg would be 83.3 gallons. then at $3.50 per gallon 166.7 gallons would be $583.45, at 12 mpg $291.55 difference of $291.90 now the $10,000 of difference in cost for a diesel. $10,000 divided by 291.90 equals 34.25, or break even in 34,250 miles of towing.

On a side note Msmith1.wa, states Tacoma, Wa. as home so those fuel prices are true, gas and diesel in the PNW have been neck and neck for the last several years.


You did not include the cost of oil changes. The most I paid on my FRED was $185. It was never less than $90. I pay far less for oil changes on my V-10.

DEF is an extra--and on my FRED (1987) I had to add a fuel supplement.

I average about 10 mpg on my v-10--by driving slowly.

I finally abandoned the FRED in 2009--Parts were scares and it really needed a new motor. Mechanical things were failing--and I was going to have to repair the power steering for a 2nd time. I allowed $0.40 cents per mile for maintenance.

The House was still serviceable but needed to be spruced up. Total costs were going to exceed $30,000.00. I bought a five year old class c with about 400 miles on the clock--no water ever in the tanks. No slides. Cost was $35,000.00.

I've had tires, brakes, and one mass flow air sensor go on the v-10.

I would NEVER consider a diesel. I would consider a BEV.

* This post was edited 12/23/21 08:03am by pianotuna *


Regards, Don
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time2roll

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Posted: 12/23/21 08:04am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

So on this ONE vacation trip for this year I saved $600. [emoticon]
Probably need a few trips to cover the diesel option before you are actually money ahead.


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ksss

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Posted: 12/23/21 08:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I had a '15 3500 with a 6.0 and 4:10's while I had a '15 3500 Duramax at the same time. The 6.0 was never set up to pull the TH, but it did haul equipment as did the Duramax. Loads were pretty heavy (last scaled weight I remember with the 6.0 was 31K combined). The 6.0 would get 5-6 mpg. The Duramax would get around 9 pulling the same loads. The diesel clearly pulled much better, but I never saw anywhere near the separation some claim between the two.


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