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toedtoes

California

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Posted: 01/30/22 11:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My Tornado-dog picked up potty training quickly as a young puppy. He caught on to "pee first, then play" with no problem. With poop, he would get distracted and forget because there was so much to do outside. Then he'd come in and suddenly remember "I have to poop"...

As the weather was nice, I could stay out as long as he needed to remember to poop.

Then, when the weather changed, he decided he would rather be inside and he wouldn't pee outside either. And all the waiting in the world didn't get him to poop outside.

So, I started teaching him cues. When he started to pee, I'd say "potty" and when he finished, I'd praise him. When he started to poop, I'd say "poop" and when he finished, we'd go straight inside (that was his reward because that's what he really wanted when it was cold and wet outside) as I praised him.

It took a while with him because he is easily distracted, but one night, we were out back and I was sitting on the patio. He peed and then ran for the back door. I just sat there and said "poop". He looked around, then ran out, pooped, and came racing to the door. I praised him and we went inside.

The next morning, he had the same "aha" moment.

Now, I sometimes have to wait until he focuses (we are learning the "focus" cue - which is simply "stop worrying about the neighbor dogs barking and focus on your goal"). But as soon as he lets go of the distraction, he rushes off to do his poop.

I had to train myself to first understand his poop schedule and then use that as a guideline. My instinct was to have him poop right before bed and when we first get up. But after a week, he just stopped pooping at night. Mornings, he was quick to poop. I thought he had backstepped.

My habit was to let the dogs out back during the day to hang. And I only go out for the morning and bedtime trips (to ensure his potty time). What I discovered is that he was pooping in the afternoon rather than at bedtime. Now, if he doesn't poop at bedtime, I trust him.


1975 American Clipper RV with Dodge 360 (photo in profile)
1998 American Clipper Fold n Roll Folding Trailer
Both born in Morgan Hill, CA to Irv Perch (Daddy of the Aristocrat trailers)

toedtoes

California

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Posted: 01/30/22 01:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Mental stimulation is a huge thing, especially for working breeds. I have to keep Tornado-dog's brain busy or he starts using it by himself - to mostly unappreciated results.

I was always taught that a prong collar was to be used just long enough to get the dog to respond to leash corrections. Once the dog understood what the "quick jerk" of the leash meant, the prong collar was eliminated and the leash correction itself was sufficient.

That's one reason why I think that trainers tend to overuse and overrecommend them. If your dog is an obedience title bearing dog, then why continue to use a prong collar? The dog is fully trained. The dog doesn't pull or run or not recall, etc. Corrections are rarely needed and the dog responds quickly to a verbal correction. So why continue to put an aversive training tool on the dog. Same with shock collars.

When we took Tornado-dog and Cat-dog to a beginning obedience class, there was a young (8-14 months) border mix in the class. She was very hyper and excited. The trainer had the owner use a prong collar. Even without any movement of the leash, the dog yelped and cringed every time the prongs made contact with her neck. The trainer's answer was to recommend using plasic prongs. The truth is that dog had no need for a prong collar. She was very responsive to treats, eager to please, and quick to learn. She just needed to burn off some energy before going to class where there were so many distractions.

I use martingale collars. The main reason is because I don't need to switch out the collar for walks, etc. With harnesses and haltis, it always became a production even if it was just to go outside to potty. And when you're in a small camper with two large dogs, the quicker you can get them out the door, the better.

I mentioned on the other thread that behaviorists are focused on resolving the underlying issue behind a behavior. If a dog is leash reactive, they are going to identify WHY the dog is leash reactive and work to change the dog's emotional response. A trainer is focused on getting the dog to perform a specific behavior regardless of the underlying cause.

The reason most behaviorists do not use or promote the use of aversive tools and methods is because those don't resolve the underlying issue. Behaviorists are also a fairly new field and as such the people in that field have been trained in newer methods and understandings of dogs.

Trainers are more likely to use aversive methods and tools, because they work quick. Owners want to see see fast results. Also, most owners look for trainers with a reputation. To have a reputation, they have to have training for some time. So, a trainer is more likely to use old methods because that is what was done when they learned - many come from the "alpha dog school of thought". And few trainers "go back to school" to learn new methods. They tend to the adage "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" and since their goal is to get a certain behavior, they aren't necessarily concerned with how the dog "feels" about the method/tool used as long as the dog does the behavior.

Dogs do have a heirarchy. However it is not a simple "you alpha me beta" system. Studies have found that the heirarchy differs between feral, street, and pet dogs, as well as between individual groups within those types. And some groups/packs don't even have a heirarchy. But the main thing is that dogs do not see humans as their "pack". We are not dogs and dogs know that. We are something different that they are attracted to. So, using alpha-based training methods (like biting the dog's ear, alpha rolls, never letting the dog on your bed, and so on) are ineffective and will do more harm than good. It's like you going to the DMV and being told "drop your pants and cough" - you know what that means, but it makes no sense for the DMV to use it.

Deb and Ed M

SW MI & Space Coast, FL USA

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Posted: 01/30/22 03:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Crowe wrote:

Part of the problem is keeping up with the exercise he needs.


I SOOOOO understand this - and to make matters worse, we spend 5 months in a condo, which means dogs-on-leashes.

Last fall, I bought an "old lady 3-wheeled bicycle" - Augie trots (or gallops) alongside the front wheel. I use the command "trot" instead of "heel" because heel puts him too close to the rear wheels. Anyway - he loves it; and although I can ride a 2-wheeled bike, the 3-wheels is a ton more stable in case he pulls sideways; and I only need one hand to steer it no matter what speed we are going.

My bike is a Schwinn "Meridian" - a heavy beast with one speed, but it's solid as a rock and it's not like I'm riding it for miles....

toedtoes

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Posted: 01/30/22 03:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I never thought of using a trike for stability. I'm going to have to look into those.

toedtoes

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Posted: 01/30/22 03:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Oh dear. I just looked for folding tricycles on Amazon and came across this one.

Check out the photo. That's a BIG trike!

[image]

winnietrey

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Posted: 02/01/22 05:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Deb and Ed M wrote:

Re: prong collars - yes, that collar enabled me to hang onto the leash (arthritis) during Augie's antics. He too doesn't like to pull very hard against it; and IMO, he got so used to not pulling, that he simply doesn't bother, even with his "regular" collar. BUT: spend the money and buy a GOOD "Herm Sprenger" collar. The cheap ones have "square-cut ends" and the Sprengers have round, smooth ends. Surely they are more comfortable for the dog to wear?
.

Yes, went with the Herm Sprenger, in three 1 hour walks it has made a night and day difference.

Just throwing this out there, don't know if it is correct. But in a sort of worst-case scenario. I have heard it more than once that, a prong collar can come apart at the worst possible time. (As in your dog is lunging after another dog) Some folks recommend a backup collar.

I my case I have a choke chain along with the prong collar. Choke chain although clipped into the leash (along with the prong collar) just hangs loose and does nothing. However, if the prong collar ever broke, I would still have control with choke chain.

Just a thought, but makes me more at ease doing both

Deb and Ed M

SW MI & Space Coast, FL USA

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Posted: 02/02/22 02:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

winnietrey wrote:



Yes, went with the Herm Sprenger, in three 1 hour walks it has made a night and day difference.

Just throwing this out there, don't know if it is correct. But in a sort of worst-case scenario. I have heard it more than once that, a prong collar can come apart at the worst possible time. (As in your dog is lunging after another dog) Some folks recommend a backup collar.



My first thought is that if your dog is lunging at another dog, even with a prong collar on - you REALLY need some help.....LOL!

The first prong collar I bought had nylon straps that clicked together with a plastic buckle - yeah, I could see that setup failing. But it was also a cheap collar that came with little plastic tips to cover the SHARP edges of the prongs. After the first tip fell off, I threw that one away. The first Sprenger I bought had the traditional choke-chain attachment, but those should be put on by removing a link. Back to arthritic hands (rolling eyes).... so the newest one I have, has a metal clasp and there's a sliding cover that keeps it from accidentally coming open. It's easy to put on and remove without getting tangled in Augie's long ruff. But it was also around $50 on Amazon - quality doesn't come cheap.

Crowe

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Posted: 02/02/22 03:16pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

We've tried the martingale collar with limited success. After much thought and angst we have decided to withdraw from the Canine Good Citizen class and take it again when Tully is older and neutered. We're not quitters but sometimes reality and common sense take over. There's not much point in setting all of us up for failure and causing unnecessary stress. When I called the facility to advise them we would not be returning I got the chance to speak to one of the trainers and she agreed it was a wise choice at this time. It kills me to waste the investment (the class wasn't cheap) but discretion is the better part of valor.


I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be Douglas Adams

RV-less for now but our spirits are still on the open road.

toedtoes

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Posted: 02/02/22 03:42pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Nothing wrong with waiting until Tully is a bit older and has more patience and self-control.

winnietrey

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Posted: 02/02/22 04:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Deb and Ed M wrote:

winnietrey wrote:



Yes, went with the Herm Sprenger, in three 1 hour walks it has made a night and day difference.

Just throwing this out there, don't know if it is correct. But in a sort of worst-case scenario. I have heard it more than once that, a prong collar can come apart at the worst possible time. (As in your dog is lunging after another dog) Some folks recommend a backup collar.



My first thought is that if your dog is lunging at another dog, even with a prong collar on - you REALLY need some help.....LOL!

The first prong collar I bought had nylon straps that clicked together with a plastic buckle - yeah, I could see that setup failing. But it was also a cheap collar that came with little plastic tips to cover the SHARP edges of the prongs. After the first tip fell off, I threw that one away. The first Sprenger I bought had the traditional choke-chain attachment, but those should be put on by removing a link. Back to arthritic hands (rolling eyes).... so the newest one I have, has a metal clasp and there's a sliding cover that keeps it from accidentally coming open. It's easy to put on and remove without getting tangled in Augie's long ruff. But it was also around $50 on Amazon - quality doesn't come cheap.


Naw not lunging at other dogs so much as doing what your Auggie did in your other post. More wants to play. But that would be a bad time for the Sprenger to fail. (Depending on the other dog) And from what I have heard they do on occasion fail. Which is why I also use the choke chain as a backup. And as I mentioned choke chain is loose and not doing anything, would just be there if the Sprenger failed
Which is why I have it on as well

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