Behaviorist vs Trainer

[winnietrey]

Dr Doug in the "Tully" post mentions trainer and behaviorist as sort of two different things.

I must have spent my life under a rock as I guess I did not realize the difference.

I have no expertise and no real knowledge, but our current guy I now understand is a behaviorist. Just seems to me he gets a little far out there at times with his interpretation of what the dog is thinking and what to do about it. Not to say that he has not helped, he has.

But what I really wanted was my dog to stop pulling on the leash, his approach was not working but the prong collar did.

So, I do not know which approach is best, but seems to me a little less dog psychoanalysis, and a little more aversion therapy is not a bad thing

Just wondering what you guys think, bottom line I want to walk the dog, he wants and needs those walks, but not going to happen if he keeps ripping my shoulders off

[toedtoes]

winnietrey wrote:
I agree TT that is the plan. So far as long as he sees the leash, (prong collar or not) he is all over it.

Just saying from what I have seen a prong collar is good starting point

It can be for the right dog and owner.

I don't recommend them (or shock collars) because I can't guarantee the owner will use them correctly and/or the dog can handle it - I'd rather recommend non-aversive methods that may take more effort but won't physically injure the dog if used improperly.

[winnietrey]

I agree TT that is the plan. So far as long as he sees the leash, (prong collar or not) he is all over it.

Just saying from what I have seen a prong collar is good starting point

[toedtoes]

Winnietrey, I'd suggest that now that you have made an impression on the dog, that you try the non-aversive techniques without the prong collar.

I have heard from a lot of owners that their dog improved instantly with the prong collar, but that with continued use the dog began showing a strong dislike (not wanting to go out for walks, not wanting the collar put on, etc).

Of those, the ones who then eliminated the prong collar and started using the non-aversive methods, saw the dog respond better to those methods (even if they didn't respond to them before using the prong collar).

For me, I've never had a dog who didn't respond to force free training.

[winnietrey]

I am certainly no expert. But three, one-hour walks in a prong collar changed my dogs walking on a leash 100%. All the stuff our "trainer" taught (behaviorist" was good to a point). But dog still pulled like crazy

My take, truth is somewhere in the middle, little Kum by Yaw therapy, little aversion therapy

JMHO

[Deb_and_Ed_M]

I'm not going to call myself a "trainer" - but I spent a couple of decades teaching horses (and their riders) how to be "good". I've also convinced a dozen or so dogs to be great pets.

I apply a principal I've always believed with horses: put them in a bit that will stop them in their tracks; then ride with super-gentle hands. Example: a halter is very comfortable for a horse to wear - but if that horse decides to take off with you on its back, you won't be able to stop it. They are too strong.

Now that I'm officially an Old Lady, Augie is stronger than my hands are able to hang on to the leash - I found that out one day while walking him; and as we approached an even older lady walking a small dog, I went way off the path and told Augie to "sit". Which he did nicely, until the lady stopped in front of us and proceeded to coo and baby-talk him until he simply lost it - ran like a crazed dog towards her, ripping the leash out of my hand, jumped 5' in the air and as he flew past her face, he gave her a sweet little kiss on the cheek!, landed and ran right back to me. THAT is when I realized I needed more control, and ordered the prong collar. And like I said before, now that he is used to being quiet and polite while walking, he continues to be good even if he doesn't have the prong collar on.

I DO have a Sprenger "no pull" harness that worked nicely on him as a pup, but as his fur grew longer, it got tangled in the harness and was inflicting discomfort for no reason.

Just some random thoughts....

[Pawz4me]

The only time I use the term "behaviorist" is when referring to a veterinarian with a specialization in behavior --

American College of Veterinary Behaviorists

What is a veterinary behaviorist?

Or to someone who is certified by the Animal Behavior Society

Applied animal behaviorists are scientists, educators, or other animal professionals with an advanced academic background in the principles of animal behavior. Applied animal behaviorists may have a background in fields as diverse as psychology, biology, zoology, veterinary medicine, or animal sciences. They may work in laboratories, zoos, farms, animal shelters, universities, corporations, or as private consultants (and beyond!). What applied animal behaviorists have in common is the application of scientific principles to improving the care, management and welfare of animals in captivity and the wild.

Unless the person meets the qualifications for one of those, IMHO they're just a trainer. But there's no regulation on who can call themselves a behaviorist, so . . . buyer beware.

[toedtoes]

In my view, behaviorists are more about resolving emotional/psychological issues your dog is having while trainers are more about teaching your dog a certain behavior.

Take my Cat-dog. She is afraid of other dogs.
A behaviorist is a better choice because they are focusing on teaching her not to be afraid of other dogs, whereas a trainer is focused on getting her to walk past another dog without a reaction. The first works to resolve Cat-dog's fear, the second simply focuses on the end result (my being able to walk her around other dogs).

If your dog is simply pulling while walking, then a trainer is sufficient. If your dog is pulling because she wants to run away from scary things, then a behaviorist will be more effective in the long run.

As for aversive methods, that doesn't differentiate between a behaviorist and a trainer. There are both that use aversive methods and both that use non-aversive methods.

For pulling, check out kikopup videos on youtube. They use non-aversive methods to stop a dog from pulling.

My logic is that if I can train my dog without resulting to punishment, pain, etc, then I owe it to my dog to do so.

[dturm]

My general impression is that behaviorists work to correct problems based on each individual dog's personality and current theory about dog behavior,

while

trainers use techniques they have utilized and perfected less interested in individual dog personalities.

This of course in an over-the-top generalization and many utilize mixtures of both approaches.

As far as pulling on the leash, if the Halti collar doesn't work, you might try a Halti no pull harness. This harness has straps that go under the axilla (arm pits) and attach to the leash. If a dog pulls, pressure is put on the axilla and that's uncomfortable to the dog. It tends to give better control than a choke or pronged collar.

[jesseannie]

Use a "gentle leader or halti" I had an aussie that would pull hard constantly when I put the gentle leader on her it worked first time. Eventually she did not need the "nose leash".
Yhe only issue is people thought it was a muzzle and would leave her alone, which wasn't a bad thing. It does not hurt them.