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 > Will a 3/4 ton do

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spoon059

Just north of D.C.

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Posted: 06/09/22 06:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BurbMan wrote:

You obviously know more about trucks than I do...I do not know for a fact that the axles on a 2500 and 3500 are the same. I only posted the results from my trip to the scale and compared them to the ratings on my truck and the ratings published for a 2500.

I've been contributing to this forum since 2001, 11+ years before you joined, so if anybody is trolling it's you. The OP asked a question about weights and you're trying your best to turn this into an argument.

I believe that ratings are there for a reason, you obviously think they are concocted for political reasons have have no basis in fact. As my Dad used to say, "You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be."

The ratings are for warranty and registration purposes only. You can register a Tacoma to 14,000 lbs and load it up and be perfectly LEGAL, though I doubt it would move very far.

There used to be a larger mechanical difference between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but the manufacturers long ago realized that it is much cheaper and easier to put essenentially the same rolling chassis under either truck and change the spring pack and the sticker on the door to meet the DOT requirements for a class 2B truck.
The spring pack is easy to overcome, with helper springs, Timbrens or air bags.
The sticker can simply be ignored and your truck registered for whatever weights you are willing to pay.

My Ram has AAM 11.5" axles in the rear. They are rated to 12,000 lbs by AAM, derated to 7,000 lbs for the 3500 and 6,500 lbs for the 2500 with 18" rims, and 6,000 for the 2500 with 17" rims. Same axle.
The brakes, wheel studs, engine, transmission, rear differential, bumpers, bed, body, tires, radiator, etc are exactly the same. The frame is slightly different, just due to the shock mounts from the 2500 coil to the 3500 leaf. Ram rates the coils at 500 lbs lower than the leaf springs. If that 500 lbs worries someone, they can put bags or Timbrens to make up the difference.

The only reason that truck manufacturers make a 3/4 ton these days is to get into the class 2B market, which only allows a vehicle a max GVWR of 10,000 lbs. You can by a Ford F350 with a 10,000 lbs sticker, does that make it any less capable than an identical F350 with an 11,500 sticker?


2015 Ram CTD
2015 Jayco 29QBS

blt2ski

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Posted: 06/09/22 07:10pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BenK wrote:

There is one OEM rating that all of the anti-ratings advisors do believe in and that is the ICE "red line"

Haven't read anyone here recommend going over it...nor "I've been doing it for years with no problems"...or..."go for it"...


Unless you have a non computer controlled motor, redline pretty much does not mean a thing in today's motors. The computer shut fuel down if you reach too high of revs, so you can't over rev a motor generally speaking today.
Some like the Dmax I had would only let me get to around 3500 accelerating, but engine braking was 5000 or so.
My idi 7.3, and 6.5td diesel shut off fuel at 3000 and 3500 mechanically.
Not sure one could over rev a motor made in the last 20-25 years, be it has or diesel.

Marty


92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

blt2ski

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Posted: 06/09/22 07:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Spoon,

The CVEO that taught some weight law classes I took, used a Toyota pickup as an example, but licensed it to 100,000 lbs pulling a trailer, blowing it up as it made the mile after pulling for 10 miles. No law against it!

Marty

MFL

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Posted: 06/09/22 08:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blt2ski wrote:

BenK wrote:

There is one OEM rating that all of the anti-ratings advisors do believe in and that is the ICE "red line"

Haven't read anyone here recommend going over it...nor "I've been doing it for years with no problems"...or..."go for it"...


Unless you have a non computer controlled motor, redline pretty much does not mean a thing in today's motors. The computer shut fuel down if you reach too high of revs, so you can't over rev a motor generally speaking today.
Some like the Dmax I had would only let me get to around 3500 accelerating, but engine braking was 5000 or so.
My idi 7.3, and 6.5td diesel shut off fuel at 3000 and 3500 mechanically.
Not sure one could over rev a motor made in the last 20-25 years, be it has or diesel.

Marty


Right on Marty...Ben's thinking is a bit dated at times!

Even my FZ1 Yamaha has a limiter. The fun news...it is 12,200 rpm, so right around 90 mph in 1st. Won't hit the limiter in 6th though, using the stock gearing.

Jerry





BenK

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Posted: 06/09/22 09:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Yup, expected it going this way and ask "why did the OEM's install computer control to limit over rev'ing"

Then...would the OEM's now manage other ratings ?

They have most of the "stuff" NOW in current vehicles

Like the several threads here both asking and showing off an aftermarket gizmo that can measure & display how much is being towed just by plugging into the computer port with nothing else to be added or changed...though that vehicle has to be an automatic, not manual

Ditto payload, but there needs to be an addition of strain gauges to both axles

Then just software like the current...modern...Redline limiter so that there isn't a redline on tachometers anymore

Another are speed limiters, torque limiters, etc

If enough folks ignore OEM ratings that then drive up warranty & service costs...yup, the OEM's will do something

Finally, tuners and their ability to circumvent OEM ratings...but the OEM's have the fed's there to police tuner firms

Edit..yup, am an old guy at 74 this year

Been retired over 20 years from careers in automation, robotics, process controls, computers, etc and all associated with military applications

Funny to continue to find that the basic algorithms are still recognizable to me. Their logic, flow, bubble, truth tables, etc all look similar to those of my day

Difference is that the stuff has gotten ever smaller and integrated


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

blt2ski

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Posted: 06/09/22 09:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jerry, correct on limiters. Some larger trucks in the class 6+ even if they have revs available, will not let a rig go over "72" mph as an example.
Just as most diesels have torque limiters. Back in the day with 400-500 lb ft of torque, max 6-1 ratio 1st gears, you might get 3000 lb ft out of the trans. With today's 10sp trans at 4.5 x 2 with a TC, 9-1, now multiply that by 1000 lb ft of torque, one has 9000 lb ft coming out of the trans in first gear. Hence why most manufactures have 1.5-12" gear sets. The 10.5s would grenade. We won't talk about the 8.5 in my 1500! Lol.

Marty

S Davis

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Posted: 06/09/22 09:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

S Davis wrote:

If you like messing with your vehicles go 3/4 ton, I towed a 14,000lb gooseneck with a 2013 2500HD and had to add helper springs, upgraded shocks and upgraded tires. My pin weight was over 3000lbs.


And yet aside from spring rate, the trucks are the same. Hence the helper springs. The other 2 items you’re claiming are just for effect, since 1 ton srw trucks are available with the same wheels and tires as 3/4 tons and shocks, well, 90% of factory shocks are less than stellar and they have no bearing on load carrying capacity.
Nice try though.


I’ll give you the shocks even though they can make the difference between a good towing experience and not. I have an issue overloading tires I guess you don’t? My factory tires were 6400lbs and hooked up the rear axle was about 7000lbs.

ShinerBock

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Posted: 06/10/22 06:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Only in the RVnet forum would we boast about our favorite brand’s 3500 DRW being rated to tow more than 4 times its weight yet freak out when someone asks about an 8k lb HD 2500 truck towing 1.75 times its weight.


DUDE, don't you know the HIPS make all the difference???????



No other class of truck is rated to tow more than 4 times it's weight even those with double "hips" like the 25k lb class 8 semi that is maxed out towing 55k lbs (GCW 80k). That is only 2.2 times it's weight. Those must be some super special "hips" to allow it to tow more than 4 times it's weight yet a 2500 not able to tow less than 2 times it's weight or a class 8 truck only able to tow less than 2.5 times it's weight.

* This post was edited 06/10/22 08:26am by ShinerBock *


2014 Ram 2500 CTD
Highland Ridge Silverstar 378RBS

valhalla360

No paticular place.

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Posted: 06/10/22 08:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BenK wrote:


Bottom line for me...if someone asks for this kind of advice...they don't know enough about that situation to make up their own risk management decision(s) and will reference them to their OEM's specifications & manuals for THEIR vehicle & setup


Excellent point.

Someone who has been towing for decades may feel comfortable pushing the truck hard. They may or may not be justified in doing so (just because they didn't die in a burning ball of fire, doesn't mean it was a great idea).

A newbie is likely to come back from a white knuckle ride. It's not uncommon for newbies to give up the hobby because they aren't comfortable towing but you also get a lot of newbies who push the limits because they don't know better and try to get away with a marginal truck. Get a truck fully rated for the load and you are far less likely to have that white knuckle ride.


Tammy & Mike
Ford F250 V10
2021 Gray Wolf
Gemini Catamaran 34'
Full Time spliting time between boat and RV


Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 06/10/22 08:54am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

spoon059 wrote:

BurbMan wrote:

You obviously know more about trucks than I do...I do not know for a fact that the axles on a 2500 and 3500 are the same. I only posted the results from my trip to the scale and compared them to the ratings on my truck and the ratings published for a 2500.

I've been contributing to this forum since 2001, 11+ years before you joined, so if anybody is trolling it's you. The OP asked a question about weights and you're trying your best to turn this into an argument.

I believe that ratings are there for a reason, you obviously think they are concocted for political reasons have have no basis in fact. As my Dad used to say, "You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be."

The ratings are for warranty and registration purposes only. You can register a Tacoma to 14,000 lbs and load it up and be perfectly LEGAL, though I doubt it would move very far.

There used to be a larger mechanical difference between 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, but the manufacturers long ago realized that it is much cheaper and easier to put essenentially the same rolling chassis under either truck and change the spring pack and the sticker on the door to meet the DOT requirements for a class 2B truck.
The spring pack is easy to overcome, with helper springs, Timbrens or air bags.
The sticker can simply be ignored and your truck registered for whatever weights you are willing to pay.

My Ram has AAM 11.5" axles in the rear. They are rated to 12,000 lbs by AAM, derated to 7,000 lbs for the 3500 and 6,500 lbs for the 2500 with 18" rims, and 6,000 for the 2500 with 17" rims. Same axle.
The brakes, wheel studs, engine, transmission, rear differential, bumpers, bed, body, tires, radiator, etc are exactly the same. The frame is slightly different, just due to the shock mounts from the 2500 coil to the 3500 leaf. Ram rates the coils at 500 lbs lower than the leaf springs. If that 500 lbs worries someone, they can put bags or Timbrens to make up the difference.

The only reason that truck manufacturers make a 3/4 ton these days is to get into the class 2B market, which only allows a vehicle a max GVWR of 10,000 lbs. You can by a Ford F350 with a 10,000 lbs sticker, does that make it any less capable than an identical F350 with an 11,500 sticker?


Lot's of truth here....and fwiw, I'm pretty sure spoon059 is a LEO.

And to his point, yes "some", mostly older models than we are using today do have meaningful differences between a 3/4 and 1 ton.
Example, 86 GMC K20 that we have. It is the 8600gvw "camper special." And if one does some quick math (since there is no magic sticker for payload, or maybe it's just been removed, idk, I don't go looking for those things), it has about 3500lbs available or rated payload based on the curb weight of the truck. Meaning the rear axle will see about 6klbs maybe a shade more fully loaded to gvw with a load centered in the bed over the axle.

That truck does not have a full floating rear axle. And as such, I would classify it differently than the trucks we're talking about in this thread.


2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5” turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29

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