Need help from experienced woodworker

[obie311]

I have a little side table that came with my Arctic Fox RV. It had a deep scratch in it and I also wanted to use it as a test case for eventually refinishing the dining room table.

I started sanding with 100, then 150, then 220, and finally 320 with a palm sander. The scratch was gone as well as the original stain and the surface felt very smooth. It actually looked like it was constructed of Oak boards with varying tones. Some light and some reddish.

I read up on the Minwax system and it recommended oil Pre-Stain for soft woods and also was said to help the stain look more uniform. I applied as directed.

Right now I'm at two coats of 235 Cherry (as mentioned on the Northwoods RV forum) to be a close match to the original stain.

I was disappointed in the darkness of the two coats of stain so I did more googling and found that I had made a mistake in sanding the wood so smooth. Apparently the rougher the wood surface the darker the stain will appear.

I'm in a quandary as how to proceed from here. Should I try two or three more coats of the 235 stain and see how it looks? Would a gel stain have more pigment and give me a darker result? Should I "unsand" the surface back to 150 or 220?

[Njmurvin]

I just refinished my grandkids' oak table/chairs set. I sanded to 220 and it wouldn't accept the stain very well. So I went back and resanded to 120/150 and it opened up the grain a bit better. You can also open the grain with water right before staining. I used pre-stain on the table but not on the chairs and honestly didn't notice any difference. It's true that it is more effective with softer woods. I agree it's really hard to match a color with oak - especially red oak because the red changes everything. I used a mahogany stain with red oak once and it really took on a dark red hue. You can always mix stains too. But be sure to keep track of your ratios if you do.

Along the lines of CoveredWagon's post above you can also try a stain/varnish combo (I think Minwax sells one). With that, the color is blended in with the finish and doesn't soak into the wood. So, each coat you apply makes it darker.

[covered_wagon]

What happens in our industry is the wood will not go dark enough for various reasons such as heavy dense woods like oak, sometimes it's the summer growth with harder grain, all will only accept so much stain so adding more stain to achieve the look we may want isn't going to happen. Sometimes it's the summer growth rings ending up showing too light as compared to the spring growth causing radical light and dark spots in the surface.

The solution is to find a top coat finish, most often lacquer, that will mix with a lacguer thinner base stain and slowly mix the two till you achieve a slight tone or tint that is effective in darkening the surface. Sort of like laying tinted glass as a top coat but, with the right color or tone we want. You want to add only a little at a time to the liquid finish and test what it does till you achieve the look your going to want but, don't go too dark right off the bat because with a toned top coat you can always go darker by adding a second or third coat. Each time you coat will tell you if you want to add another to gradually tone it darker.

Lacquer is nice because pro paint shops can help with the tone you want. Also 00 fine steel wool does wonders to a lacquered surface.

[obie311]

Thanks for the suggestions all.

Is Cleanwood a sanding sealer or just a cleaner like we used to use Prep-Sol when painting cars to get all the wax, grease, and handprints off the metal before painting?

Covered Wagon bear with me here as I want to take advantage of your knowledge, but I don't understand what you mean by "toning" the finish coat. Does that mean I would add some Miniwax 235 to a polyurethane satin top coat?

I'm missing a step here that the original furniture manufacturer did to make the finish more uniform. Is it possible that they used a toned sanding sealer first?

Luthiers use a sanding sealer on guitars, but maybe not for translucent finishes, maybe only paint. I found this warning on the internet:
Do not apply stain to the top of the sanding sealer. To work properly, wood stain needs to soak into the pores of the wood. Sanding sealer negates this process. The stain will sit on the surface and not be absorbed.

[covered_wagon]

In the cabinet business we 'tone' the surface by mixing just a little bit of the stain into the finish coat as long as they are both oil and compatible. The toning works great because it has a tendency to darken with each coat and even out the color. Add more as needed while testing on a scrape piece of oak. Mix a little each time till you get a desired tone on the test piece.

Oak tends to not take stain as well as a soft wood so toning is a good way to get the desired look you want.

[Sjm9911]

Cleanwood, sorry.
https://www.maxwarehouse.com/products/wood-clnr-clnwde-qt

[Sjm9911]

Durb wrote:
Oak is an open grain hardwood. The first coat of an oil stain will pretty much determine the color. Additional coats will add some depth but not change the color much. A different colored stain may be required. Stains should always be tested in an obscured area. In my experience, trying to match a piece by staining is difficult.

When the manufacturer finished the wood, they sealed it. Surface sanding may give the appearance of bare wood, but it still might be sealed and not accept stain as readily. You might try treating it with a liquid paint remover. Then sand, and try again as mentioned in your other forum.

Ill agree, I always use clearwood before staining. I think it helps to open up the wood grain to accept stain or paint.

[stickdog]

If you think you have hand rubbed finishes your on the wrong track. I plan to refinish our present kitchen table. Not concerned with the wood they say the finish is cherry, that's what it will be replaced with.

[Durb]

Oak is an open grain hardwood. The first coat of an oil stain will pretty much determine the color. Additional coats will add some depth but not change the color much. A different colored stain may be required. Stains should always be tested in an obscured area. In my experience, trying to match a piece by staining is difficult.

When the manufacturer finished the wood, they sealed it. Surface sanding may give the appearance of bare wood, but it still might be sealed and not accept stain as readily. You might try treating it with a liquid paint remover. Then sand, and try again as mentioned in your other forum.

[obie311]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
Be sure to use an oil based finish, I really like Helmsman Spar Urethane Clear Satin. It will give you a more rich color. Water based looks like you PIZZED on it.

Hit it with 120 then 220 and re try the stain.

Thanks. I did use an oil based Minwax.

[obie311]

"I read up on the Minwax system and it recommended oil Pre-Stain for soft woods and also was said to help the stain look more uniform."

[Michelle_S]

You state you think the wood is OAK (a hard wood) so why did you use a stain for Soft Wood?

[ssthrd]

^^Agree……..
Also, the longer you wait before removing the excess oil, the darker it will be. I usually wait no longer than about 15 minutes before rubbing it off. I like to sneak up on the tone. Might take an extra coat, but better chance to get it close.

[Cummins12V98]

Be sure to use an oil based finish, I really like Helmsman Spar Urethane Clear Satin. It will give you a more rich color. Water based looks like you PIZZED on it.

Hit it with 120 then 220 and re try the stain.

[phillyg]

Resanding 120 and 150 should help.