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 > Seven States to Ban the Sale of Gas Powered Cars in 2035

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Reisender

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Posted: 03/24/23 10:21am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wing_zealot wrote:

Reisender wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

Reisender wrote:

way2roll wrote:

blt2ski wrote:

way2roll,

While i stated a hopefull goal, i did not state some things that worry me. ie many of the things you mention. Which hopefully as part of permitting process, some of the things you mention will be ways to control run off, slides of left over muck etc.

i have a (multiple/ superfund site in my backyard per say. dept of ecology etc, know their is no way to clean these places up. its more of a how to contain these sites. The one im thinking of, i drive in and on it weekly at a minimum.

other projects like the oil line from canada to gulf states. i have no issues saying im ok with it, but the part some want to run across an aquifer, thru known sacred lands etc. Boo Hoo that the longer route costs more. At the end if the day, as noted my many, oil gets tax write offs for this, so we the people pay for it.

Hopefully, their will be better options, better lives ahead. If not, hopefully some if us can say we tried.

marty


You're not wrong and I appreciate the positive spin. I like technology when it makes a difference. But to me, EV's aren't better, they're just different. I don't see where we've solved a single problem. We've just created new ones and kicked the can down the road. I feel with the technology we have available we can do better. Maybe it will come. We'll see.


I don’t think EV sales are taking off like they are because they are solving a problem or because they are some kind of ecological panacea. People are buying EV’s because they like them. The biggest reasons people buy EV’s are still

Better performance on every metric.
Convenience of fueling at home.
Great tech (a big crowd pleaser)
Low maintenance.
Cheap fuel.
Super quiet.
For those of us who get winter EV’s are super convenient compared to gassers or diesels. Never worry about starting in the cold and for those of us who park outside a lot it’s toasty warm and defrosted with no window scraping within 5 minutes. Much faster than a gasser or diesel. Probably half our neighbours went EV shopping after they watched us go thru the first winter with ours 7 years ago. It’s nice. And gas pumps in winter are never any fun. One of our older neighbours switched last year before winter. She loves not having to deal with a gas pump in winter anymore.

But to each their own. Everybody has different preferences.


Your missed these metrics:
Highway distance between charges
Time to recharge
Distance between charges while towing


Yah for sure. It’s just a matter of wether somebody thinks those are important for their driving.

Many are fine with stopping every 3 or 4 hours and taking a 20 minute break. Almost always the car is finished charging before they are finished doing what they doing. Eating, bathroom etc. But sure, if you are the type that travels 6 hours and then takes a 15 minute fuel al food break the gasser is a better way to go. But there are a lot less of those types on the road. Definitely not a healthy way to travel.

Towing is a different animal. Those of us who are retired might be okay with a charge step every 2 or 3 hours. Others not. And of course right now one has to select a small trailer to achieve a reasonable towing experience. I’m sure that will change in time as new tech comes out. Short of towing range with existing EV’s the actual towing experience is superior with an electric. It’s a different world.

But to each his own. Bottom line is people love EV’s and sales continue to grow fast all over the world for no other reason than people love them. The number one and two vehicle in Europe are EV’s. Same in California. And many parts of Asia. Times are changing.
"Cheap Fuel"?
#1 Depends on where you live. About 0.1% of the members of this forum live in an area serviced by BC Hydro - where apparently electricity is cheap which some people like to use in their calculation for everyone. The other 99.9% of us don't. And a greater number live in Cal., where fuel can be called anything but cheap.
#2 Offset by vehicle purchase price
#3 Further offset by cost of insurance
#4 And further offset by DMV surcharges for Road Tax (growing number of states)

Let's keep talking about metrics, this is fun, albeit, one sided.


Yah. Electricity is relatively cheap fuel in pretty much all of Canada. But we lived in and off in California as well up till two years ago and it was there as well if on the after hours charging plan . Don’t know about the rest of the US.

Insurance isn’t more expensive here for EV’s so can’t speak to that.

Price of vehicle depends what you are looking for I suppose. There are some reasonably inexpensive EV’s on the market although long waiting lists for those. (Chevy bolt). Availability is tough for some models in North America. (VW’s).

Bottom line is people like them and they are willing to wait for them. Supply is a long way from demand at this point. The test drive is very convincing.

Cheers all.

way2roll

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Posted: 03/24/23 10:26am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:



Yah. Electricity is relatively cheap fuel in pretty much all of Canada. But we lived in and off in California as well up till two years ago and it was there as well if on the after hours charging plan . Don’t know about the rest of the US.





Been reading some articles recently that some EV owners in the US are upset that the cost of electricity to charge their EV's has eclipsed what the cost would be to fuel up their ICE's. I have to guess that as demand for electricity goes up, so will price.


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JRscooby

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Posted: 03/24/23 10:33am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:




Your missed these metrics:
Highway distance between charges
Time to recharge
Distance between charges while towing



Sometimes we can't see anything might be better, because we can't see different.
Do you imagine charging stations along the highways to be like gas stations of today, where you pull in stand near car while it fuels after witching about the guy in front of you blocking the pump while he shops in the C-store?
Remember, most will be charging at home, so none of the locals will be in your way. Instead of pulling into fuel station, you will pull into a restaurant or tourist site, plug in, order food wait, eat, and be 80-90% charged by the time you leave.

Huntindog wrote:

a lot of people forget where they are.
this is a TOW VEHICLE forum.


Look around, how many out of state vehicles do you see that don't have campers, or even a hitch. Pick any 20 square mile area. Can you find 1 that has more campsites than hotel/motel rooms?
We can throw ourselves on the floor beat it like a toddler, but the world will still change.
Maybe instead of fighting the changes we would be better to discuss how we can adjust our expectations so our lives aren't disrupted all the sudden.

Reisender

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Posted: 03/24/23 11:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

way2roll wrote:

Reisender wrote:



Yah. Electricity is relatively cheap fuel in pretty much all of Canada. But we lived in and off in California as well up till two years ago and it was there as well if on the after hours charging plan . Don’t know about the rest of the US.





Been reading some articles recently that some EV owners in the US are upset that the cost of electricity to charge their EV's has eclipsed what the cost would be to fuel up their ICE's. I have to guess that as demand for electricity goes up, so will price.


Wow. Crazy. What do people pay for electricity in big states like Texas or Florida or wherever? It must be crazy high to be more expensive than gas. It must make solar pretty attractive. Here it’s 6 times cheaper to run gas when charging at home. . A result of cheap power and expensive gas. [emoticon].

Turtle n Peeps

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Posted: 03/24/23 11:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

Yah. Electricity is relatively cheap fuel in pretty much all of Canada. But we lived in and off in California as well up till two years ago and it was there as well if on the after hours charging plan . Don’t know about the rest of the US.

Insurance isn’t more expensive here for EV’s so can’t speak to that.

Price of vehicle depends what you are looking for I suppose. There are some reasonably inexpensive EV’s on the market although long waiting lists for those. (Chevy bolt). Availability is tough for some models in North America. (VW’s).


I don't know where you lived in California but I can tell you that electricity is NOT cheap in California. In fact is is the 4th highest in the nation. That's average for the whole state. Now if you live where I do, you will pay the 2nd highest in the nation. Only behind Hawaii.

I pay .37 cents a kwh. They means if I ever get my electric car out of the shop (it been there for over a year) it will be cheaper to drive a mile with dino juice rather than hydrocarbons pushed out over a wire.

Yes, you read that correctly. It is now cheaper to drive my hybrid with gasoline rather than electricity.

Now I know you tow your tear drop with an EV. But, you are on a towing forum and the average American does not tow a tear drop. The average trailer I see in the US is around a 25 to 30 foot hard sided TT or a 30 to 35 foot 5er. That is going to take a pickup or very large SUV to tow. Not a little EV car.

Now if you say well you can buy a pickup in the US that will tow those trailers. Ya, you can; but it will only go about 100 miles before you need a fill up. And now we are talking a LONG time to fill (not 20 minutes like you always say) because it has a big battery and not some little tiny battery like your EV car has.

Again, this is a towing forum and battery pickups are not inexpensive at all. And remember, Ford just lost 3 billion dollar on their electric division last year because of under pricing.

I'm not knocking what you do because it works for you. But; it is far from the average trailering Joe in the USA.

Those are facts whether anybody likes it or not.


~ Too many freaks & not enough circuses ~


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outside the fire"

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Grit dog

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Posted: 03/24/23 11:44am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

way2roll wrote:

Reisender wrote:



Yah. Electricity is relatively cheap fuel in pretty much all of Canada. But we lived in and off in California as well up till two years ago and it was there as well if on the after hours charging plan . Don’t know about the rest of the US.





Been reading some articles recently that some EV owners in the US are upset that the cost of electricity to charge their EV's has eclipsed what the cost would be to fuel up their ICE's. I have to guess that as demand for electricity goes up, so will price.


As much as the “anti” side of the argument has a good point for how costs will be in the future, there is no way in he!! that the electricity charge for an EV to charge even if a fair % of charging is “on the road” is more expensive than pumping gas n diesel into a comparable sized vehicle doing the same work. Not a chance.
And saying so makes one seem just as silly as those wil silly unsubstantial arguments “for” EVs.
Insurance cost , while generally believed to cost 10-15% more apples to apples is also a metric that very few if any of us consumers can say with any real certainty. (Except for Canadians on the socialist govt run auto insurance which has its own challenges and downfalls for the consumer. I’m sure Canada spreads the wealth here and everyone pays a little more for those with EVs). As consumers, insurance rates, options, locale, use, credit score, driving and accident record, competitive pricing, etc etc make a direct insurance cost comparison as unreliable as comparing tires…..

What is certain, is, as of yet, EV mfgs and consumers are reaping the benefits of lower cost (even though the vehciles are more expensive) of fuel and additional personal subsidies that ice buyers don’t have. Those are doing a good job of leveling the playing field. For those who want the status or technology of an EV.

Also gotta remember, those of us that drive big trucks and drive fast and drove long distances and tow alot and and and ….are NOT the target market yet. Not even close.
Oh and they’re also better for old people who aren’t in as much hurry, and have voluminous home charging availability.

Just like a Mazda anything s ucks for towing a trailer. And a dually s ucks for commuting in the city, differnet EVs s uck at some things as well. Pick what fits ya best!


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Reisender

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Posted: 03/24/23 11:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Yah. Electricity is relatively cheap fuel in pretty much all of Canada. But we lived in and off in California as well up till two years ago and it was there as well if on the after hours charging plan . Don’t know about the rest of the US.

Insurance isn’t more expensive here for EV’s so can’t speak to that.

Price of vehicle depends what you are looking for I suppose. There are some reasonably inexpensive EV’s on the market although long waiting lists for those. (Chevy bolt). Availability is tough for some models in North America. (VW’s).


I don't know where you lived in California but I can tell you that electricity is NOT cheap in California. In fact is is the 4th highest in the nation. That's average for the whole state. Now if you live where I do, you will pay the 2nd highest in the nation. Only behind Hawaii.

I pay .37 cents a kwh. They means if I ever get my electric car out of the shop (it been there for over a year) it will be cheaper to drive a mile with dino juice rather than hydrocarbons pushed out over a wire.

Yes, you read that correctly. It is now cheaper to drive my hybrid with gasoline rather than electricity.

Now I know you tow your tear drop with an EV. But, you are on a towing forum and the average American does not tow a tear drop. The average trailer I see in the US is around a 25 to 30 foot hard sided TT or a 30 to 35 foot 5er. That is going to take a pickup or very large SUV to tow. Not a little EV car.

Now if you say well you can buy a pickup in the US that will tow those trailers. Ya, you can; but it will only go about 100 miles before you need a fill up. And now we are talking a LONG time to fill (not 20 minutes like you always say) because it has a big battery and not some little tiny battery like your EV car has.

Again, this is a towing forum and battery pickups are not inexpensive at all. And remember, Ford just lost 3 billion dollar on their electric division last year because of under pricing.

I'm not knocking what you do because it works for you. But; it is far from the average trailering Joe in the USA.

Those are facts whether anybody likes it or not.


Yah for sure. I see lots of big trailers in the US.

I think we paid 17 cents per KWH after 11 PM in Palm Springs, so much cheaper than what you are paying where you are. I don’t think it’s gone up much. Prices definitely vary region to region. At 17 cents it is much cheaper than gas prices.

Cheers.

monkey44

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Posted: 03/24/23 11:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Hmmm ... people talk about gas vs electric cost to run xxx miles as if it's the end all calculation to consider. That's only ONE thing about owning a vehicle, and certainly not the only cost variable to consider.

We all need to take a step back and look at mining costs, build costs, operating cost, disposal costs at the end of it's useful life. Then compare that cost to fuel driven vehicles that can produce the 'work' that each does comparativey.

We cannot compare total life costs of a small EV car that buzzes around town to work, get groceries and the costs of an EV truck that can tow a 5'er regardless of the time you're willing to spend charging or fueling.


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Huntindog

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Posted: 03/24/23 12:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have been towing rvs since 1992.they have gotten larger over the years.
my current rv gvw is 21k
i tow it with a diesel dually
i find the ev tv towing discussions.... amusing.



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JRscooby

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Posted: 03/24/23 01:20pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

monkey44 wrote:

Hmmm ... people talk about gas vs electric cost to run xxx miles as if it's the end all calculation to consider. That's only ONE thing about owning a vehicle, and certainly not the only cost variable to consider.

We all need to take a step back and look at mining costs, build costs, operating cost, disposal costs at the end of it's useful life. Then compare that cost to fuel driven vehicles that can produce the 'work' that each does comparativey.

We cannot compare total life costs of a small EV car that buzzes around town to work, get groceries and the costs of an EV truck that can tow a 5'er regardless of the time you're willing to spend charging or fueling.


Are you willing to, when comparing costs, add in the cost of cleaning up the oil spills? Or the health care from exposure to exhaust fumes? And how much of the cost of droughts, floods fires and hurricanes?
Are you old enough to remember when the starting battery went bad, you sent it to dump, bought another? Or same with tires? By the time EV batteries are reaching end of service life you can bet industry will be recycling them.

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