time2roll
Southern California
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Bionic Man wrote:I’m not sure why you are so adamant in your defense of EVs as TVs. The simple fact is they aren’t ready for prime time for the vast majority of users, and won’t be for the foreseeable future. Can people get excited about the additional capabilities of the EV RAM vs the competition without getting criticized?
Is there not enough anger over in the gas vs diesel thread?
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Reisender
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Bionic Man wrote:Reisender wrote:Groover wrote:otrfun wrote:Interesting, 8 bolt axles/wheels and 2700 lbs. of payload. 14k tow capacity.
Also, the airbag suspension, I assume, probably has a "low-rider" mode which reduces drag to extend range on the freeway.
Pretty impressive. It'll be very interesting to see how far it can tow 14k though.
People seem to be obsessed with the impact of trailer weight on range. My experience has been that a flatbed heavily loaded with firewood or dirt has less impact on fuel economy than an empty box trailer. Hence, it is air drag that kills range. Yes, weight does hurt range some with ICE vehicles but that is mostly due to increased use of mechanical brakes turning momentum into waste heat. An EV designed for towing will turn most of that momentum into electricity and put it back into the battery for re-use.
Range studies need to focus more on air drag and towing speeds, not weight. The auto makers know this and their towing tests are conducting with trailers having large air dams on the trailer giving consistent air drag results. The major testers like TFL need to get trailers of this sort. Auto makers rate their vehicles for max frontal area in addition to weight. Most people on this site seem to be unaware of that rating.
Yah. There are a whack load of electric SUV and electric half ton owners towing A-liners or other pop ups that have good results with towing. As soon as the profile gets higher the range falls off pretty quick. I’m sure some RV manufacturers in the future will pay more attention to this as the market develops.
How many units comprise “a whack load”? Because in all of my travels I’ve only seen one EV towing a trailer. That was a Tesla towing a 23’ wake boat in Boulder CO, and the owner said he tows from town a very short distance to the lake.
I’m not sure why you are so adamant in your defense of EVs as TVs. The simple fact is they aren’t ready for prime time for the vast majority of users, and won’t be for the foreseeable future.
A whack load? They are common here and the EV towing groups like them as well as other small trailers like smaller tear drops etc.
I’m not adamant about anything. EV’s make nice towing vehicles for a certain small type of trailer. EV’s are not suitable for medium or larger trailers. I have said that from day one. You may be confusing me with someone else.
Small trailers are common here, but that’s because a lot of the provincial parks and forestry sites don’t accommodate larger units. Nothing wrong with larger trailers, they are suited well to gas and diesel vehicles.
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blt2ski
Kirkland, Wa
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I used to get +2mpg with my 96 6.5TD towing my Bobcat trailer at 18K GCW vs my TT at 14-15K lbs gcw. All because of the additional 20 sq ft more frontal area. ALong with typically on a grade, I could be a bit faster, and a gear taller!
The max sq ft the current tow ratings is 80 sq ft. How many normal full height RV trailers have less than 80 sq ft of frontal area? So with that in mind, How many of you are over your tow ratings with your almighty ICE rigs? Thought so! QUite a few of you! as was I at 90 or so sq ft. Not to mention in that 96, I was over my gcwr per GM of 12500 due to the emanual tranny vs the POS 4L80E at 14500 gcwr!
Weight as mentioned is not a killer for mileage, wind resistance is MORE important than weight!
Just like generally speaking, a 5W with no bedroom slide, smooth fiberglass sidewalls will net the best MG at any given GCW vs other styles of trailers. AN airstream is close! Not quite. A tenth or two less mpg.
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propchef
NORCAL
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Bionic Man wrote:
How many units comprise “a whack load”? Because in all of my travels I’ve only seen one EV towing a trailer. That was a Tesla towing a 23’ wake boat in Boulder CO, and the owner said he tows from town a very short distance to the lake.
I’m not sure why you are so adamant in your defense of EVs as TVs. The simple fact is they aren’t ready for prime time for the vast majority of users, and won’t be for the foreseeable future.
We have a "whackload" here in NORCAL. I see them almost daily...towing. I live just off CA 101 at the Mendo line and it's RV central here, with Cloverdale (our little town) marked as a rest stop on many NAV units and software. They park across the street at the park and have lunch. We also have a KOA and a Thousand Oaks campground (avoid this one).
If you haven't seen them, it's because you haven't noticed. I see more every day.
Quote:The simple fact is they aren’t ready for prime time for the vast majority of users
This has been said over and over. No one's arguing, no one has suggested (that I've seen) that an EV should be pulling a 5th wheel or a larger TT for 500 miles. CLEARLY, EVs don't currently have the range but that doesn't mean much at the rate we're improving batteries and charging capabilities. The towing range isn't touted as one of the benefits. Lack of maintenance, performance, and total cost of ownership is still advantageous enough for many to happily switch to EVs.
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vern kelly
la crescenta, ca
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otrfun wrote:Interesting, 8 bolt axles/wheels and 2700 lbs. of payload. 14k tow capacity.
Also, the airbag suspension, I assume, probably has a "low-rider" mode which reduces drag to extend range on the freeway.
Pretty impressive. It'll be very interesting to see how far it can tow 14k though.
Also cannot find any publication of the curb weight. It must be a very heavy battery pack to boast that kind of range which will affect registration fees and insurance rates negatively. (GVWR rating)Price tag must be very high and charge time.
The Ford EV weighs over 6500, and the gmc hummer an obscene +9000 pounds which is almost as much as my 1998 Ram with my 10 foot Lance camper on board!
A new F350 dually curb weight is in the 7200 lb range (gas) as a comparison with well over 4000 pounds payload capacity.
1998 2500 Dodge V10 3.55 Quad cab. Lance 5000 camper 9'10" and tow 17.5 ft Larson Boat
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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time2roll wrote:Bionic Man wrote:I’m not sure why you are so adamant in your defense of EVs as TVs. The simple fact is they aren’t ready for prime time for the vast majority of users, and won’t be for the foreseeable future. Can people get excited about the additional capabilities of the EV RAM vs the competition without getting criticized?
Is there not enough anger over in the gas vs diesel thread?
Where have you been?
No one’s even posted in that thread in like a year an a half…
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otrfun
On The Road
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vern kelly wrote:otrfun wrote:Interesting, 8 bolt axles/wheels and 2700 lbs. of payload. 14k tow capacity.
Also, the airbag suspension, I assume, probably has a "low-rider" mode which reduces drag to extend range on the freeway.
Pretty impressive. It'll be very interesting to see how far it can tow 14k though. Also cannot find any publication of the curb weight. It must be a very heavy battery pack to boast that kind of range which will affect registration fees and insurance rates negatively. (GVWR rating)Price tag must be very high and charge time.
The Ford EV weighs over 6500, and the gmc hummer an obscene +9000 pounds which is almost as much as my 1998 Ram with my 10 foot Lance camper on board!
A new F350 dually curb weight is in the 7200 lb range (gas) as a comparison with well over 4000 pounds payload capacity. I see the added weight as more of a positive than negative. Yes, bigger batteries means more weight, but more importantly it means more range. Rather doubt the added weight will be a stability issue---battery packs are generally positioned very low in the chassis. EV motors produce massive amounts of torque and HP, so pushing this additional weight around is certainly not an issue. The added momentum should improve regenerative braking. I see more pros than cons.
As for registration fees, with various levels of govt pushing for a quick transition to EV's, I'd be surprised if they penalized EV truck owners over weight. If anything, to incentivize the fastest possible transition, I could see registration fees for EV's decreasing, while registration fees for FF (fossil fuel) vehicles increase.
You mentioned charge times. I believe it's a legitimate concern. It only takes a few min to fuel up an empty FF vehicle. I believe this will be the most difficult issue for manufacturers to resolve to the satisfaction of current FF vehicle owners.
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Cptnvideo
Arizona - most of the time
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There will also have to be additional registration fees imposed to offset the loss of revenue of taxes on fuel.
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Grit dog
Black Diamond, WA
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Cptnvideo wrote:There will also have to be additional registration fees imposed to offset the loss of revenue of taxes on fuel.
Operating an EV will not be a cheap proposition once or if they take over as the majority.
This is just the baiting period. Once you get the net full of keepers, hang on to your wallet when the power bills and road taxes show up!
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Golden_HVAC
Fairview OR, USA
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FishOnOne wrote:Without detailed specifics, RAM is essentially saying all your EV truck concerns (Specific shot at the F150 Lightning) will be a non issue with their EV truck. This truck maybe so good it's forcing Ford's hand to redesign their Lightning already.
It takes Ford 5 years to go from a design to produce the tooling to install that tooling in a factory to actual production of a new vehicle. So if the 2025 F-150 EV is coming out in September of 2024, then 5 year before (September of 2019) is when Ford decided what it will look like and started to change the design from a computer drawing into the tooling they need to produce the truck.
By January of 2021, Ford knew what the 2025 F-150 looks like and has the tool and die makers producing that stuff. Ford could make a minor change, such as changing from a 130 to a 150 KW battery pack at this point, but by the spring of 2024, it will be to late to make such a change. And they want something new to put into the 2026 model refresh, so they might not want to start out with a 150 KW battery option until the 2026 model year update.
Ram is making a ridiculous 190 and optional 230 KW battery pack. By using 8 bolt rims, it seems to have a over 8,500 GVWR, so the highest of all the Big 3 at this point. Towing a fifth wheel is actually going to be possible. With the battery cell cost of about $150 per KW, that is about $15,000 for the 100 KW battery pack, twice as much for this size truck, no wonder they will not give out the total price! Maybe RAM is hoping that the price of batteries will drop below $100 per KW by 2025.
People towing with a Rivian and Lightning are getting about 1/2 of the rated mileage when not towing. So the 500 mile range, if they actually reach that, expect about 200 - 250 miles while towing a travel trailer that is lower profile, and a little less in a fifth wheel that is taller and more wind! That is still acceptable, as your can charge it very quickly because it is 800 volt battery, and can get about 200 amps X 800 volts or 160 KW into the battery - so a 30 - 45 minute charge will fill it a lot.
I think that most cars are currently limited to 400 volts from the charger, and the power cord is limited to only about 300 amps maximum.
The RAM has some great specs. I just wish they had come up with the design before 2020. And could have it in production by the end of 2023. But as the superbowl ad says "We do not want premature electrification".
I also think Ford thought the EV F-150 would not be popular, and that only 10,000 a year might be sold, and might end up collecting dust on the parking lots. Where they wrong with that prediction!
Lets hope that Ford has a heavy duty F-250 EV truck planned for 2026! I think they will need it!
Fred.
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