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D.E.Bishop

Eagle Rock, CA

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Posted: 07/15/19 07:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am finding this to be very interesting. I still don't believe that all NFPA standards are Codes, therefore, after reading the sections in 1194 and 70, I think there is a huge area of latitude in applying these standards. (Yes I know that the NFPA says all 50 states have adopted 70)

I didn't spend days pouring over the standards but I did notice that Canada was involved with the development of 1194. It would seem then that in Canada these standards also apply.

But I transgressed, could you please direct me to the portion of a standard or code which defines whether or not a stand can only be occupied with an RV facing one way? In other words does the standard prohibit pulling straight into a back in stand?

There are several other points that can be made regarding the NFPA overstepping its bounds. Our favorite campground has only one access point, the campground being 14 miles off the highway on a narrow road and it isn't economically feasible to install another road, the ocean view stands were obviously intended as pull ins and not back ins but they are set up as back in stands. Which brings to mind, can an RV use a Trailer stand? Different construction standards for each.

* This post was last edited 07/15/19 08:25pm by D.E.Bishop *   View edit history


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BB_TX

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Posted: 07/15/19 08:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

D.E.Bishop wrote:

I am finding this to be very interesting. I still don't believe that all NFPA standards are Codes, therefore, after reading the sections in 1194 and 70, I think there is a huge area of latitude in applying these standards. (Yes I know that the NFPA says all 50 states have adopted 70)
In other words does the standard prohibit pulling straight into a back in stand?
...........

NFPA has produced over 100 documents, all in some way related to fire safety. Some of those documents are titled as codes and some as standards. 1194 is a standard. 70 is a code. A code is written in a manner that attempts to leave no room for interpretation and can be incorporated by the local “authority having jurisdiction” as local law. All stated requirements include the word “shall” as in “you shall do this” or “you shall do that”. A city ordinance may require NFPA 70 must be folllwed for any building in its city limits essentially making it enforceable law.

A standard is written in a less rigid manner and may have a requirement such as “you should do this” or “you should do that”. Or give options to chose from.

Every NFPA code and standard has a committee made up of 15-25 unpaid volunteers who work for other companies who are in some way associated with the target area of that code or standard. They meet regularly to review and update the documents if needed. They are in no way beholden to NFPA and NFPA cannot direct them as to what they include in those documents in the way f requirements. On top of that, all requirements of those codes and standards go out for public review before they are actually incorporated.

Lastly, none of the documents are law in themselves. They must be adopted by local authorities as local codes to be law.

I served as a volunteer on two NFPA committees for 15 years and know how their system works.

* This post was edited 07/15/19 09:10pm by BB_TX *

D.E.Bishop

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Posted: 07/15/19 11:58pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BB_TX, I don't refute what you are saying in the least, but some have the opinion that NFPA is law. I just think they are wrong and you have verified or at least back up my belief. I started in the electrical trade some 65 years ago and NEC has always been our guide(code really). The City of Los Angeles has had some standards that were more stringent than the NEC, this did not violate the NFPA rules as some say it would.

So anyway, on to the 1194 Standards there are as I pointed out a few areas where our fellow RVer from BC is quoting the 1194 Standards as being enforceable in the USA where he is wrong and why. And I think that should those standards be adopted as they stand, they would either prove not to be enforceable or they would bring an end to campgrounds with utilities at the individual sites. Dictating that backing into a non-drive through site makes absolutely no sense at all. I think a campground owner has the right to make that rule but not the NFPA or the local government.

The intent of the standards is great but there are unintended consequences in following those standards that obvious at least to me.

Tvov

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Posted: 07/16/19 05:12am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SoundGuy wrote:

obedon wrote:

Are there any recommended adaptors or do I need to shop for an extension cord model??


You want a 30 amp 10 gauge RV extension cable, sold in 25' and 50' lengths. Since you're here in Ontario and will no doubt be camping in the Ontario provincial park system I'd highly recommend you invest in a 50 footer which along with your existing 25' cable that came with the trailer will allow you to reach out 75'. That will cover you for most situations but in the future you may also want to eventually add a 25' extension to your collection so you can reach out 100' which is not uncommon at all here in Ontario. FWIW I made my own cables which altogether allowed me to run out 140' - and used every inch of it at Inverhuron PP. [emoticon]


I prefer having multiple shorter lengths - two 25ft cords instead of a 50ft. Easier to handle. Whatever you think will work for you!


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GrandpaKip

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Posted: 07/16/19 08:06am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Be aware that long runs of cord can lead to voltage drops. A lot of pedestals already have less than 120V. A simple plug into an outlet voltmeter can keep you apprised of the situation.


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BB_TX

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Posted: 07/16/19 10:05am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

D.E.Bishop wrote:

BB_TX, I don't refute what you are saying in the least, but some have the opinion that NFPA is law. I just think they are wrong and you have verified or at least back up my belief. I started in the electrical trade some 65 years ago and NEC has always been our guide(code really). The City of Los Angeles has had some standards that were more stringent than the NEC, this did not violate the NFPA rules as some say it would.
.....,.

You are correct. Some think NFPA is some government agency with some guy sitting in his office making up rules to justify his existence. And that is far from the truth. NFPA is an independent non profit group dedicated to safety. And their codes and standards are not laws in themselves. But local authorities can mandate using those codes as their local codes in their entirety, or add exceptions or additions as they choose. And of course virtually all authorities dictating building codes specify NFPA 70 NEC in their local codes in some form.

myredracer

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Posted: 07/16/19 12:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

D.E.Bishop wrote:


So anyway, on to the 1194 Standards there are as I pointed out a few areas where our fellow RVer from BC is quoting the 1194 Standards as being enforceable in the USA where he is wrong and why.
Actually, all I did in response to someone who said he doubts such codes/standards exist, is quote out of 1194 & art. 551 to show such codes & standards do exist.

I would be interested though to see a link to something that shows that NFPA standards aren't enforceable.


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BB_TX

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Posted: 07/16/19 02:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

myredracer wrote:

D.E.Bishop wrote:


So anyway, on to the 1194 Standards there are as I pointed out a few areas where our fellow RVer from BC is quoting the 1194 Standards as being enforceable in the USA where he is wrong and why.
Actually, all I did in response to someone who said he doubts such codes/standards exist, is quote out of 1194 & art. 551 to show such codes & standards do exist.

I would be interested though to see a link to something that shows that NFPA standards aren't enforceable.

The NFPA codes and standards are enforceable by the “authority having jurisdiction” if that AHJ creates their own code specifying that the NFPA code is to be adhered to. An AHJ can be federal, state, city, or other entity with enforcement rights. NFPA is not a government entity and has no enforcement rights. They are a self funded non profit organization who creates these standards and codes for others to use. And you sure would not want some government bureaucratic office to create them.

Vintage465

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Posted: 07/16/19 04:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

From NFPA 1194:

5.2.2.2 The water and electrical assemblies shall be located on the left rear half of the site (left side of the recreational vehicle) within 6 ft (1.8 m) of the stand.

From NEC:

551.77 Recreational Vehicle Site Supply Equipment.

(A) Location. Where provided on back­in sites, the recreational vehicle site electrical supply equipment shall be located on the left (road) side of the parked vehicle, on a line that is 1.5 m to 2.1 m (5 ft to 7 ft) from the left edge (driver’s side of the parked RV) of the stand and shall be located at any point on this line from the rear of the stand to 4.5 m (15 ft) forward of the rear of the stand.

For pull ­through sites, the electrical supply equipment shall be permitted to be located at any point along the line that is 1.5 m to 2.1 m (5 ft to 7 ft) from the left edge (driver’s side of the parked RV) from 4.9 m (16 ft) forward of the rear of the stand to the center point between the two roads that gives access to and egress from the pull­through sites.

The left edge (driver’s side of the parked RV) of the stand shall be marked.

Seems like this guy is right. Be nice if everyone would just admit when someone is right and not try to back up their stiff necked opinion with objections. Did you know it's against the law to nickles in your ears in Hawaii? Neither did I til my son told me about 12 years ago. That law may have changed by now! Education is a good thing.


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drsteve

Michigan

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Posted: 07/16/19 08:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

When was this standard formulated? I know of one MI state park that has shared power pedestals, four sites per box, and up to 100 feet of extension cord required.


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