Selinoid

[farmingdad]

Can any tell me were chassis selinoid on a 08 sig

[YC_1]

Salesman Switch thread

Salesman Switch.

[enblethen]

We are still talking relays (solenoids)
OP: can you locate the make and model of the relays in question?

[enblethen]

Salesman switch is in many rigs, a momentary switch that operates the battery disconnect latching relay, Big Boy like the unit I replaced.
Some rigs do use a small control relay to hold in an electrically held battery disconnect relay.

[Groover]

YC 1 wrote:

enblethen wrote:
YC 1:
That somewhat dirties the water! Big Boys are latching relays, where the Trombella linked it an electrically held.
Big Boy Information
Trombetta wiring diagram

First let’s clear up the "Big Boy" question. It is like calling all tissues Kleenex.

To be specific there are several variations of the "Big Boy" solenoid. The solenoid is a very simple electric switch controlled by a 12-volt source. See, even the Big Boy is not always called that. As an electronic tech I will refer to it as the relay. How's that for confusion.

So, Big Boy, Solenoid, Relay, and often because of the mfgr of these they are called Trombetta relays.

Sorry if this muddied the water for you. As indicated, they are often called a lot of different things and operated a bit differently, Add the "salesman switch" to the mix and you can get more confusion.

Hopefully my lengthy read helped some folks that are not tech savvy.

I found your comments to be very helpful as my knowledge was limited to my experience with one coach. Due to my having two Trombetta relays die on me already I am considering upgrading to a Big Boy latching relay at some point. I will have to investigate what is involved in upgrading the controller that I have since it is set up to produce continuous power to the relay for the Trombetta.

I am also curious now about "salesman switch". I know where the switch is but I have never located the relay to see what type it is. I may just decide to bypass it since the only time it is needed is when I drop leave the coach somewhere for service and they don't use it anyway.

[YC_1]

enblethen wrote:
YC 1:
That somewhat dirties the water! Big Boys are latching relays, where the Trombella linked it an electrically held.
Big Boy Information
Trombetta wiring diagram

First let’s clear up the "Big Boy" question. It is like calling all tissues Kleenex.

To be specific there are several variations of the "Big Boy" solenoid. The solenoid is a very simple electric switch controlled by a 12-volt source. See, even the Big Boy is not always called that. As an electronic tech I will refer to it as the relay. How's that for confusion.

So, Big Boy, Solenoid, Relay, and often because of the mfgr of these they are called Trombetta relays.

Sorry if this muddied the water for you. As indicated, they are often called a lot of different things and operated a bit differently, Add the "salesman switch" to the mix and you can get more confusion.

Hopefully my lengthy read helped some folks that are not tech savvy.

[enblethen]

Big Boy coils are not rated continuous, the contacts are!

[Groover]

This statement from the OP seems to imply either that the controller for the Big Boy is the wrong one or it is defective as it suggests that the power to the solenoid stays on all the time. Maybe someone upgraded the relay without upgrading the controller. Since the Big Boy solenoid is not rated for continuous duty that could be a problem.

" The big boy in the rear run box stays hot all time to touch"

[enblethen]

YC 1:
That somewhat dirties the water! Big Boys are latching relays, where the Trombella linked it an electrically held.
Big Boy Information
Trombetta wiring diagram

[YC_1]

Here is a an old post that might clear up some misconceptions.



First let’s clear up the "Big Boy" question. It is like calling all tissues Kleenex.

To be specific there are several variations of the "Big Boy" solenoid. The solenoid is a very simple electric switch controlled by a 12-volt source. See, even the Big Boy is not always called that. As an electronic tech I will refer to it as the relay. How's that for confusion.

So, Big Boy, Solenoid, Relay, and often because of the mfgr of these they are called Trombetta relays.

How these relays are activated can be complex or as simple as sending 12 volts and ground to them.

You will notice on your relay in the battery compartment that there are two wires. One is likely purple. In any case one is ground and the other is switched 12 volts. The purple wire is the switched voltage in most cases.

Again, 12 volts is sent to the purple wire and the big relay goes clunk and makes contact between the large wires thus combining the batteries.

That relay under normal working conditions will get very warm or even hot to the touch if it runs for several hours. For example, if things are working properly and you are using shoreline it will be working 24/7 and get hot to the touch. This is normal.

So, the heart of the system is that relay on the back being controlled by 12 volts. How and where that 12-volt control comes from can be the tricky part to understand...

We will get to the BIRD part shortly.

First, if the engine is running and after a few minutes of warming up and the grid heater stops loading down the battery voltage on the chassis batteries should rise enough to engage the BIRD device and send the 12 volts to the relay. This is the “Delay” part of the bird. It would not make sense to combine the batteries without the alternator having brought up chassis batteries a bit.

So, let’s take the situation where your chassis batteries have been run down for some reason. You left the radio on for two days etc.

Pressing and holding the Aux start button bypasses the fancy “BIRD” circuitry and sends 12 volts directly to the relay in the battery compartment. This combines the battery banks just as a set of jumper cables would.

Part 1:














Part 2.

Now that we understand how the relay functions let’s begin managing when it is turned on. We already discussed how the “Aux” start button controls it. That is a manual function and can easily be tested by listening to the relay as someone presses the button. If no clunk is heard, then the relay is most likely already activated. To test this without a meter, simply remove the purple wire. Wear some gloves because there will be a tiny static like discharge that can surprise you. If you have a meter you can measure the voltage on the little terminals. You can also carefully feel the relay to see if it is warm or hot IF it has been engaged for some time.

Here is how the Bi-Directional Relay Delay functions to control that purple wire.

Keep in mind the “DELAY” part as you are troubleshooting. It can take a couple of minutes for it to activate. No sense in combining batteries if the first bank being charged is not up enough.

Parked with nothing running and no shoreline the bird is asleep. No combining. However, if you have solar that is indeed a charging source and may be enough to activate the bird.

Now you plug into shoreline. The little circuit board in the front run panel wakes up and sees that your converter is doing a fine job of charging the coach batteries. The converter is connected directly to them via cutoff switches and fuses or circuit breakers. The BIRD now sends voltage to the relay and engages it, thus combining the batteries.

Time to leave, shoreline is disconnected so the BIRD drops out the control voltage. You fire up the big engine and in a couple of minutes the BIRD sees a nice alternator doing its thing. Time to send voltage to the relay again.

We have just discussed the BI-directional part of the BIRD. This demonstrates how it can work from one set of battery banks to the other depending on which one is getting the charge.

Arriving at your favorite boon docking place you decide to fire up the generator to run some heavy loads. This generator is the same thing as having shoreline power, so it works as described before.

So, you spend the weekend without the generator running anymore and enjoy the quiet along with
some tv and perhaps running the microwave on the inverter. Inverter of course not the converter. They can be combined in one box and I can address that more if needed. Inverters are real battery hogs so now you have a very low set of batteries.

You are packed, and the big engine is started, thus providing a big enough voltage to activate the BIRD. You are now charging 6 batteries or more and the alternator is straining. This is rough on the alternator, so you follow the manufacture and my advice and fire up the generator so the “converter” comes alive and supplies voltage to the dead batteries.

At this stage you have two sources of charging voltage. The converter via the generator, and the alternator. This poses a bit of an issue with the alternator and can cause it to show a fault. However, the BIRD is rather smart and knows the engine is running along with the generator. With these two competing charging sources it simply turns the Relay off and allows each battery bank to be charged separately.

Now that you understand how it works, here is a scenario that could get you home if your alternator dies. Just start the generator and prop the AUX button up so it forces the banks to combine. Since your alternator is offline there will not be any conflicts. This will easily get you any distance you wish to travel.

Of course, you could put a small jumper from 12 volts to the purple wire and do the same without pushing the button.

Now you understand how, when, and why the relay is activated. What you don’t know is if it is actually working. The relay is a very simple device inside. It is a magnet that pulls a contact across the two large wires connected to it. Very often these contacts burn and fail to make contact. This can be intermittent and drive a technician crazy.

If the relay is activated there is either a charging source or the AUX button is being held down. When it is activated it is like placing a nail across the two large terminals. So you should see the exact same voltage on each of the large terminals and at the batteries. If you do not see the exact same voltage across the large terminals, then the relay is bad.

This can be a bit tricky if both banks of batteries have been fully charged and the relay is making contact but a poor one. You will see the same voltage on each large terminal and think the relay is ok. You need to run one bank down a bit so there will be lots of current trying to charge for an accurate assessment.

If you are having one bank of batteries low after having a charging source for several hours and you find voltage on the purple wire then the relay is bad.,

These relays are a known source of problem and I had a heck of a time understanding how the system works. I am a senior certified electronic tech and extremely qualified to work on such a simple system as long as I know how it is supposed to function. I did not have that information in 2008.

Replacing the relay is easy and cheap as things go on these things. Be sure to turn both battery banks off and I would highly recommend removing the negative leads of each bank for additional safety. You can weld with these battery cables so do be careful.

Once you replace the relay do yourself and us a favor by taking it apart and posting pictures of the insides.

The actual BIRD control board is a common failure item too but has become difficult to source. I found one on e-bay.

Don’t despair if that is the problem because there are plenty of other solutions available.

There is another relay that has nothing to do with the charging system but gives plenty of problems. It is the “Salesman” switch/relay. It is the relay controlled by the switch by the door or nearby. The relay is in the box up front near the BIRD board. The BIRD board is a small board. The relay is on the bottom left.
This thing controls lots of functions and can go bad anytime. Simply bypassing it with a jumper is easy and permanent fix if it fails.

[enblethen]

The control input to the relay is rated as intermittent due to the fact that it is operated by a momentary switch. Operation is done by pushing and releasing of the switch.
The high amperage portion of the Big Boy is rated 200 amp continuous and 1200 amps for max of thirty seconds. This allows for large output surge to such items as inverters.

[Groover]

enblethen wrote:
The Big Boy uses a momentary voltage input to latch or unlatch the relay. Voltage is not required to be present at all times.
The contacts are rated 200 amp continuous duty. The Trombetta is only rated 150 amps.
The Big Boy is a latching relay where as the Trombella is an electrical held relay. The preform a completely different purpose.

That sounds good but then why is it only rated for intermittent duty?

[enblethen]

The Big Boy uses a momentary voltage input to latch or unlatch the relay. Voltage is not required to be present at all times.
The contacts are rated 200 amp continuous duty. The Trombetta is only rated 150 amps.
The Big Boy is a latching relay where as the Trombella is an electrical held relay. The preform a completely different purpose.

[Groover]

enblethen wrote:
This is the common battery disconnect relay
Intellitec Big Boy

The fact that is has intermittant duty printed on the label concerns me since it is probably being used for continuous duty. Regardless, it will get hot if it is kept on very long. I would replace it with the Trombetta if it were mine but that doesn't seem to be the problem anyway. I am still wanting clarification of what the actual problem is and why the other relay repeatedly fails. I suspect that it is even less durable than the Big Boy and is also improperly used for continuous duty.

I do know some basics about electricity and can read the labels but I am not an electrician. On that note I have heard that most solenoids take more power to energize that is required to maintain the energized state and that a good controller will reduce the power after an initial surge. This will help reduce lost power and prolong the life of the solenoid. I have never witnessed this and wondered if it is actually a common practice.

[enblethen]

I just had something pop into my head why relays can get hot and fail.
Power to control of relay is not correct. Being a large MH, it is possible that relays are receiving 24 volts instead of 12 volts.