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Yosemite Sam1

Under the pines.

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Posted: 05/06/21 10:22am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Don't understand the argument against.

1. Overall battery vs oil in terms of total environmental footprints favors the former.

2. Total cost to operate is cheaper for EV.

3. Convenence, go buy leap and bounds if you have a solar roof is no-contest for EV (ask my daughter, lol, she is not going back to gas even the Prius she previously owned).

Timmo!

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Posted: 05/06/21 10:51am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sam, what is the total carbon footprint to manufacture and operate an EV? Including the battery pack and expansion of the electric grid. What is it?

We know what the carbon footprint is to manufacture ICE and producing fossil fuels.

We should also allocate some of these costs to EV as well, since fossil fuels are required for EV production.

I am simple guy in a complex world, so I use numbers/accounting to remove any personal bias. So far, it seems the cost of EV (per car) is not much different than ICE, hence the targeted subsidies from taxpayers to equalize the price differences (which are NOT available for ICE).

EV industry is in it's infancy and we don't know, what we don't know. And there is much to learn as EV technology matures (ie version 1.0 to 14.0 ) and what to do with expired lithium batteries that reached end of life. Is smelting the answer? Gotta include the cost of that carbon footprint.


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Yosemite Sam1

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Posted: 05/06/21 11:10am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gasoline vs Electric

@Timmol

This article include the chart to show full-cycle (manufacturing to operation) comparative footprints of gas and EV vehicles.

fj12ryder

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Posted: 05/06/21 12:00pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Hmm, here's a quote from that blog, you just have to dig a bit:

"Manufacturing a mid-sized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15 percent more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle. For larger, longer-range EVs that travel more than 250 miles per charge, the manufacturing emissions can be as much as 68 percent higher."


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Timmo!

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Posted: 05/06/21 12:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sam, a 2015 article updated 2019 (without references or footnotes) published in a biased blog is nothing but pure commentary. Sorry.

Also, that article failed to discuss costs for expanding the electrical infrastructure, environmental cost for the damage resulting from lithium mining, taxpayer cost of government targeted subsidies, and most important, the cost to reclaim spent EV batteries, since smelters will be using massive amount of fossil fuels.

Certainly you can do better.

BCSnob

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Posted: 05/06/21 12:16pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Good job Timmo!, you gave us half of the comparison. Do the work to complete the comparison by showing us the impacts of mining tar sands proving you’re not being biased about which industry has the greater impact on the environment. Don’t forget about the piles of sulfur produced mining tars sands.

Timmo!

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Posted: 05/06/21 12:20pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

But that report referred in the blog states the following (which helps prove my point, thanks!):

Global warming emissions occur when manufacturing any vehicle, regardless of its power source, but BEV production results in higher emissions than the making of gasoline cars—mostly due to the materials and fabrication of the BEV lithium-ion battery. Under the average U.S. electricity grid mix, we found that producing a midsize, midrange (84 miles per charge) BEV typically adds a little over 1 ton of emissions to the total manufacturing emissions, resulting in 15 percent greater emissions than in manufacturing a similar gasoline vehicle.

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/fil........ars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf

BCSnob

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Posted: 05/06/21 12:35pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! you’re right, if people dispose of their vehicles immediately after purchasing them the ICEs will contribute less pollution than BEVs. However, most people choose to drive their vehicles and over the lifetime of use BEVs have lower total lifecycle emissions (according to the same report)

Quote:

On average, battery-electric vehicles have much lower global warming emissions than comparable gaso- line vehicles, despite higher emissions from vehicle manufacturing. For a midsize 84-mile-range BEV, manufac- turing emissions are approximately 15 percent, or 1 ton of CO2e higher than those of a comparable conventional gasoline vehicle. However, total global warming emissions of the midsize BEV, when powered by the electricity grid mix repre- sentative of where BEVs are sold today, are 51 percent lower than the comparable midsize gasoline car, thereby saving
29 tons of CO2e.


Timmo!

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Posted: 05/06/21 12:36pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

As I had suspected, in that 2015 report, the authors admitted they did not know the cost to recycle lithium batteries...and six years later, we still don't have a plan. If the authors were unable calculate the anticipated "savings", then they certainly could not determine the "cost". Reminds me of the blind men and elephant story.

Lithium-ion Battery Recycling
There are only two companies that currently have the capability to recycle the large lithium ion batteries required for BEVs—Retriev Technologies and Umicore (Retriev Technologies 2015; Umicore 2015)—and there are three different approaches to the recycling: hydrometallurgy, pyrometallurgy, and direct physical recycling. It is expected that recycling can reduce battery manufacturing–related energy consumption by 10 to 17 percent, depending on the manufacturing process and battery type (Hendrickson et al. 2015; EPA 2013). Our results do not incorporate this energy savings because there are sparse data on how industry is currently recycling batteries or intends to do so in the future, but there is potential for recycling to reduce emissions and increase resource utilization.


IMO, a plan without a plan, is not progress.

Yosemite Sam1

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Posted: 05/06/21 01:45pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

this is so funny I could weep with the way of hair-splitting happening on this exchange. Once one question was asked and answerered, another what and what ifs come up, responding to macro then segueing into micro .[emoticon][emoticon][emoticon]

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