Campground owners

[clikrf8]

We have parking forget mountain bikers on our property. We are condidering a small rustic campground. I woukd like to pm any members to ask a few questions. How do i do that? If this is not appropriate, please notify me and remove. If not, i would love to hear from you.

[clikrf8]

I guess BLM and USFS and state wildlife sites are exempt? This is a rustic informal campground. This is in the rural West, where we aren’t so formal. Thanks for all your help, I would like this thread to be closed.

[DrewE]

I have no idea what the rules are in your state (nor even which state that is), but Vermont requires that all campgrounds have potable water faucets within 400 feet of every "dependent" campsite (which means one without hookups), a toilet facility within 400 feet of every dependent campsite (which may be a normal toilet, a vault privy, or a composting or incinerating toilet--I suspect not a portable temporary unit like a porta-potty, but I'm no commissioner), and a dump station unless all RVs with interior plumbing are excluded or all sites have sewer hookups.

The threshhold for being a campground is having more than three campsites.

[clikrf8]

For tenters, we have a porta potty. There are free showers at a local park about a mile away or pay showers about 5 miles away. No water, WiFi, garbage, etc. This is rustic camping like BLM. We supply firewood. We only have 2 campfires and follow Area restictions for burn bans or are even more stringent. We also forbid bonfire types and cooking. Most use propane or butane stoves.

Our open space can be returned to normal taxation in this county by paying the difference for the last 10 or 12 years plus interest. Even then, we have saved well over this amount. Without it, we would be paying $4500 a year.

We are leaving on a camping trip and have a caretaker for parking lot. Camping has been suspended while we are away. I guess we will see a land use attorney when we return.

Yes, the parking lot has been profitable. It has made a difference in our income tremendously. Our clients includes retired heart surgeon, 3 ER physicians, several firefighters, nurses, oral surgeons, naturopath, students, business owners, etc. I actually like them better than some of my neighbor’s in my gentrifying rural area.

[coloradoparkown]

westernrvparkowner wrote:

clikrf8 wrote:
Actually, no mountain biking on our land but world class biking ¼ mile up the road. We only offered 4 rustic spots. We do provide a porta potty for day use. The trail head parking is a permitted use without a permit. We currently have an open space agriculture exemption for taxes but are thinking of going for open space recreation. I guess we need to discuss this with planning department. To get a csmpground permit, we need to put up $3250 for a permit fee then go before a hearing exsminer. This campground is neede as there are two state parks, one 20 miles away, 2 KOAs which are just as far and one RV park by the airport. Most mountain bikers are tenters or roof top tents or vsns. They dont want full service and they want close access to trails. The neighbors would be able to comment but are not that biker friendly except for a few. But, the biking is not going away. Also, the trails have raised their property values. I will contact planning and keep you updated.

It is our experience that tenters need and use the MOST services, since they don't have on board facilities. They need a place to poop, a place to shower and brush their teeth. They need a place to wash their dishes and dispose of their waste. They don't have cooking facilities, so they need to build fires, rain or shine. That means you have a constant threat of embers igniting the forest. They get the fuel (wood) for those fires by scavenging, meaning they have to roam from the designated area, and sometimes by cutting down your trees. For all your troubles, the tenters are accustomed to paying a rate considerably lower than RV sites. Unless you are just interested in subsidizing the mountain bikers because it is an activity you are passionate about, don't do it. It will NEVER be a profitable carefree enterprise.
I would also check and re-check with your attorney and insurance agent. Letting people stay on your property is a high risk, no reward proposition. Should something happen, either accidental or intentional, the fact you are doing it because you are a nice person isn't going to stop someone from suing you. Personally, I would have the requisite "No Tresspassing" erected immediately unless or until I got all the T's crossed and I's dotted. I am not nice enough or rich enough to accept the risks you are currently facing. Also you better have your attorney research and explain in detail the Open Space Designation protections. I think you will find that protection is full of loopholes, one of which is any improvements (campsite, toilet facilities etc.) would void that protection in those areas at a minimum and maybe across you entire property. Getting that designation may also restrict your ability to improve your property. In Montana, placing a conservation easement on your property is permanent, forever prohibiting subdividing, development or construction. I know several families who regret their ancestors granting those easements. The properties today would command millions of dollars as residential land (not dense subdivisions, but as 5 - 10 acre tracts) yet can be sold only for a small fraction of the actual value due to the restrictions.

I often disagree with westernrvparkowner but on this we're on the same page. Don't just walk but run from this idea.

[westernrvparkow]

clikrf8 wrote:
Actually, no mountain biking on our land but world class biking ¼ mile up the road. We only offered 4 rustic spots. We do provide a porta potty for day use. The trail head parking is a permitted use without a permit. We currently have an open space agriculture exemption for taxes but are thinking of going for open space recreation. I guess we need to discuss this with planning department. To get a csmpground permit, we need to put up $3250 for a permit fee then go before a hearing exsminer. This campground is neede as there are two state parks, one 20 miles away, 2 KOAs which are just as far and one RV park by the airport. Most mountain bikers are tenters or roof top tents or vsns. They dont want full service and they want close access to trails. The neighbors would be able to comment but are not that biker friendly except for a few. But, the biking is not going away. Also, the trails have raised their property values. I will contact planning and keep you updated.

It is our experience that tenters need and use the MOST services, since they don't have on board facilities. They need a place to poop, a place to shower and brush their teeth. They need a place to wash their dishes and dispose of their waste. They don't have cooking facilities, so they need to build fires, rain or shine. That means you have a constant threat of embers igniting the forest. They get the fuel (wood) for those fires by scavenging, meaning they have to roam from the designated area, and sometimes by cutting down your trees. For all your troubles, the tenters are accustomed to paying a rate considerably lower than RV sites. Unless you are just interested in subsidizing the mountain bikers because it is an activity you are passionate about, don't do it. It will NEVER be a profitable carefree enterprise.
I would also check and re-check with your attorney and insurance agent. Letting people stay on your property is a high risk, no reward proposition. Should something happen, either accidental or intentional, the fact you are doing it because you are a nice person isn't going to stop someone from suing you. Personally, I would have the requisite "No Tresspassing" erected immediately unless or until I got all the T's crossed and I's dotted. I am not nice enough or rich enough to accept the risks you are currently facing. Also you better have your attorney research and explain in detail the Open Space Designation protections. I think you will find that protection is full of loopholes, one of which is any improvements (campsite, toilet facilities etc.) would void that protection in those areas at a minimum and maybe across you entire property. Getting that designation may also restrict your ability to improve your property. In Montana, placing a conservation easement on your property is permanent, forever prohibiting subdividing, development or construction. I know several families who regret their ancestors granting those easements. The properties today would command millions of dollars as residential land (not dense subdivisions, but as 5 - 10 acre tracts) yet can be sold only for a small fraction of the actual value due to the restrictions.

[clikrf8]

Oh, if we get the open space recreation designation, we are not held liable as our state has a law about this. That is why there are mountain biking trails on private forestry lands. No, we cannot currently get insurance for our lot. We tried.

[clikrf8]

Actually, no mountain biking on our land but world class biking ¼ mile up the road. We only offered 4 rustic spots. We do provide a porta potty for day use. The trail head parking is a permitted use without a permit. We currently have an open space agriculture exemption for taxes but are thinking of going for open space recreation. I guess we need to discuss this with planning department. To get a csmpground permit, we need to put up $3250 for a permit fee then go before a hearing exsminer. This campground is neede as there are two state parks, one 20 miles away, 2 KOAs which are just as far and one RV park by the airport. Most mountain bikers are tenters or roof top tents or vsns. They dont want full service and they want close access to trails. The neighbors would be able to comment but are not that biker friendly except for a few. But, the biking is not going away. Also, the trails have raised their property values. I will contact planning and keep you updated.

[valhalla360]

If you want to do it legitimately and securely, it's probably a lot more expense and harder than you think for very little return on investment.

Even for the parking, you likely need commercial insurance and if they are mountain biking on your property, I bet the insurance company will be either denying you let them or making you have them fill out disclaimers while raising your rates.

If you add a campground, you likely need to meet state campground regulations for water supply, sewage disposal, etc...

If you are in a remote area and small, you might go illegal and fly under the radar. Sometimes that works for decades...but one trip & fall and someone else may own your property.

[clikrf8]

Oops, iPad and in a hurry. Parking for mountain bikers. I know how to send private message; i just didnt know which members were campground owners. May i pm you?

[westernrvparkow]

You click on their screen name on the left of one of their posts. That will bring up a menu that includes "send a private message". Got to ask, what in the world are "parking forget mountain bikers"?