Reese Goosebox and Lippert Frame Failure Report

[Endricken]

After hitting an unavoidable (single construction lane) very large pothole in lonely west TX on I-10 west of Van Horn TX, (about 31,400 towed miles) last month, my truck’s transmission was partially disabled (Throttle Control actuator) – went into a limp mode, CD Player shut down, and glad the seat belts restrained us (and much later discovered the front box beam the supports the Wings for the Hitch was cracked). Got to Tucson AZ ok but found DW’s KitchenAid mixer (quite heavy) had bounced out of the RV Kitchen Sink (which put a divot in the linoleum floor) and truck was easily/inexpensively repaired. That must have been on BIG jolt!

Then on to Mesa AZ for a week and on departure from there noticed the RV was just a little low/closer to the truck bed than usual. I thought maybe the Goosebox airbag was to blame and pressed on to El Paso. Noticed the Goosebox air label was scratched so I thought maybe it was shifting – but still towable. After leaving Abilene TX noticed the RV kept getting slowly closer to the truck bed while towing but hoped it would “stop” dropping at some point. Unfortunately RV eventually started bouncing off / hitting the truck bed rails so got off at the very next exit on I-20 just east of Dallas which conveniently had an RV Park (God is GOOD! – NO other services at that Exit). Goosebox and its Lower Jaw were so twisted the Jaw could no longer move (32,868 towed miles). Airbag was still full too, versus losing air like it always did. Got safely parked with Full Hookups.

Called several nearby RV Dealers who could not fix, but one did refer me to a Body Shop in nearby Garland TX that specialized in RV Repairs (Quality Collision). They sent out their mobile RV Repair Crew who removed the bottom panel under the front cap and eventually the front cap so their mobile Welder could assess. A small 1” crack with a little rust was on the left (as you face the front of the RV) side of the wingbox on the front Box Beam (prior damage from somewhere/sometime), and on the right side of the wingbox a shiny new crack was almost all the way through the box beam and it was twisted upwards several inches raising the front closet floor and twisting the wing set. Preparing their estimate and getting Insurance to approve took a week. Welder constructed a new front frame assembly with 2 parallel Box Beams out of ¼” (vs Lippert’s 3/16”) and two extra braces between them besides the supports for the hitch wings. He spent an entire afternoon welding it all back together much stronger and better than before. Side beams of the RV were intact. A new Lippert 21K Pinbox (stronger/heavier than original 15K Pinbox) was installed (Total Cost of repairs over $8K) and I had the Star Performance Kingpin Adapter installed ($825 plus S&H).

Reese would not provide a new Goosebox under warranty as it did not fail per their provisions. But it didn’t absorb enough shock to prevent breaking the Lippert frame (which they market as the only approved gooseneck adapter to tow Lippert frames with) – though perhaps no hitch or adapter could have handled the collision and prevented the subsequent frame damage.

Lippert Frame Evaluation: lasted 10 years - 7 with a Gooseneck adapter, but not built as robustly as they could be. Mobile Welder used thicker/stronger steel and much more thick welds. Let’s not forget almost all Lippert frame failures occur towing with regular Fiver Hitches.

HISTORY: When I purchased my 2005 (Build Date Oct 1 2004) Montana Big Sky RV in Dec 2007, it had about 5000 miles on it per the seller. At that time I installed the Star Performance Kingpin Adapter. In June of 2012 I encountered the worst washboard concrete in New Orleans just as you get off the new, smooth I-10 Bridge across Lake Pontchartrain. The porpoising motion was so bad I had to slow to 40 MPH. On our next campout (16,626 towed miles) I noticed the back of the horizontal Pinbox plate the Kingpin is attached to was slightly bent up. RV Service Center agreed it was not a big deal. However in June of 2014 I once again encountered nasty washboard cement on I-57 in IL and noticed the Kingpin plate was bent just a little more (27,542 towed miles) so I was convinced by Lippert/Reese marketing to try their new Double Shock with Airbag Goosebox approved for use on Lippert Frames as I was afraid the Kingpin plate might just keep bending and fail. As it turned out I only towed my RV for 9 more months and about 5000 miles before the frame broke and ended up twisting and preventing operation of the Goosebox.

Based on several CAT scale weigh-ins, I’m just under 14K lbs when fully loaded (which I was not on this home/AL to TX to AZ trip).

Reese Goosebox Evaluation: They said they've never had a failure reported. Rated to 16K. They never answered my technical query about range of motion or amount of “force attenuation” the Goosebox offers. My guess is the Goosebox Jaw normally moves up to 2 inches primarily attenuating up and down forces, or as translated from back and forth movement and is about 85-90% effective in reducing “chucking”.

PROS: No Safety Chains needed to hook up (no provision for them). Coupler attaches itself to the ball.

CONS: Must grease Coupler (via 1 zerk) EVERY time you tow and may also need to refill the airbag every time too. I found that if I started with 45 PSI in the bag (Reese recommendation is 35-40 PSI), I would be in the low 30’s (under 35 PSI) at the end of any tow. The 50 PSI Pressure Relief allows the compressed bag to “puff” out air during operation (as described by Reese Technical support when I complained to them thinking I had a leak…). Greasing every tow was not too bad, but getting out the air hose and refilling the bag was a hassle (I have an onboard Truck Air Compressor and 5 Gallon tank – what if you don’t?). For these “every tow maintenance” reasons (and slightly worse performance than my prior adapter) I wasn’t interested in another Goosebox and wasn’t too disappointed they wouldn’t provide me a new one (Mine was slightly bent/twisted and lower jaw was badly scraped up where the air Fill Label used to be so was considered unusable by RV repair and myself).

STAR PERFORMANCE KINGPIN (Gooseneck) Adapter Evaluation: Rated to 30K lbs, offers about 4 inches of fore and aft movement and 2 inches of up and down movement to absorb/reduce forces/stress on the RV and about 90-95% effective in reducing “chucking”. Now that I have a much stronger front frame and Pinbox, hopefully the very strong STAR PERFORMANCE KINGPIN adapter won’t bend anything again. Available from SPHITCH.com

PROS: Costs about $200 less than the Goosebox. Much Stronger than Trailer. Only has to be greased every 2000 miles (usually several RV trips) via 6 Grease Zerks.

CONS: Must use Safety Chains and lever with locking bar for coupler surety. Must grease every 2000 miles. Some agility required to do both of these activities.

Can report we successfully made it home to AL towing 665 miles via often rough I-20. Next trip will be a long one to northern WI, not too far south of Lake Superior next month.

Sorry for such long story, but I thought the details may interest some. Safe Towing and happy journeys!

[Endricken]

OP again,
I upgraded to the EZ Flex greasable shackles and rubber insert for my suspension a long time ago. Seemed to make a slight improvement towing and for onboard disturbances.
Will either get my existing suspension shocks replaced or may try the "Joy Rider" Shock system when the wheels get re-packed again.
My RAM truck has Bilsteins just over a year old.

[Dayle1]

Mile High wrote:
A fellow Montana owner had one of the first made, and he had a Hensley Trailersaver air ride hitch, one of the best around. When other frames were breaking, he always credited his success to that Trailersaver.

Unfortunately, he too found himself with a completely destroyed from frame and interior damage just like the rest like many of the others.

For me, the moral of that story is get the air ride hitch for the comfort of the ride, but don't fall for the hype about it saving your trailer or truck. If the trailer or truck isn't built to handle the job, it doesn't matter what hitch is under it.

Years ago, I came to the conclusion that cushioned hitches or pin boxes have minimal benefit when it comes to bad road conditions like the OP's pothole. They simply isolate the two vehicles (which benefits the driver more than the rv). The best thing you can do for a trailer is improve it's suspension over the simple leaf spring setup. I went with the Mor/ryde IS system. Now days almost every leaf spring fiver comes equipped with Equiflex or something similar, which is at least somewhat better than what manufacturers were doing 10 yrs ago.

[The_Mad_Norsky]

Very true Mile High.

Guess it is the outstanding quality control and products made by the RV industry as a whole here in the US. Sarcasm intended.

[Mile_High]

A fellow Montana owner had one of the first made, and he had a Hensley Trailersaver air ride hitch, one of the best around. When other frames were breaking, he always credited his success to that Trailersaver.

Unfortunately, he too found himself with a completely destroyed from frame and interior damage just like the rest like many of the others.

For me, the moral of that story is get the air ride hitch for the comfort of the ride, but don't fall for the hype about it saving your trailer or truck. If the trailer or truck isn't built to handle the job, it doesn't matter what hitch is under it.

[The_Mad_Norsky]

Good photos OP. Some pretty substantial damage for sure.

If it eases your mind any, there have been reports of Lippert frame damage on all sorts of fifth wheels seen here, up to and including what I thought was built too strong to suffer such damage, the DRV Mobile Suites line.

And with regular fifth wheel hitches as well as goosenecks.

Perhaps those who have invested the extra cost into some of the air ride hitches are in truth one step ahead of all of us.

One can only hope that is. We all tow all over the place, and seeing the damage you have suffered is the last thing any of us wants to have happen to anyone.

Best of luck in your repairs.

[Endricken]

Another Pic of the failure of the front Box Beam after the welder removed it (the box beam behind that supports the back of the wingset was also removed but was undamaged).

[Endricken]

Just for clarification, as the OP, Here is a picture of the front beam crack just to the right of the Wingset as you face the RV, which was the same side the Pothole shock was (If this works):



My Trailer was an 05, I bought in late 07, by build date it was just over 3 years old, so querying Keystone or worrying about warranty was not an issue and I accepted becoming my own "warranty station" (Which has been exercised MANY times with the usual minor RV failures...).

I just wish I hadn't been "suckered" by the Reese/Lippert assurances their "frame" issues with adapters were "dissolved" if you used their approved Goosebox. I'm sure it works for most users most of the time, but NOT for me.

[Mile_High]

copeland343 wrote:
I know you will not agree that is just the way I see it.

I would agree if it made sense, but it doesn't. Without the gooseneck, the truck and truck frame attached to the hitch is taking the stress, with the gooseneck, the stress is on the frame of the trailer.

Including the hitch in the pin box relation is not correct. That would be like saying both systems ultimately get pulled from the bottom of the tires so there is not difference between the two.

[copeland343]

The Mad Norksy
I do understand the warranty and what is and not covered. I was was only stating what I believe to be true. You still have to decide for your self what hitch to use there is good and bad in all designs. The following is from a travel trailer warranty statement.

Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by the unauthorized attachments, modifications or alterations to the structure, body, or frame of the recreational vehicle including but not limited to trailer hitches for towing, or platforms for supporting cargo;

[copeland343]

Mile High
The goose-neck adapter I have connects like a fifth wheel hitch and it has a plate like a fifth wheel hitch. My Fifth Wheel hitch if I pull the pivot pin and raise rise the trailer I have a 8 inch long fifth wheel adapter connected to the trailer. I have a full tilt head. I do not do that to disconnect from trailer. The way my both hitches connect at the pin box is the same the pin slide into hitch from the rear and is held in by a jaw no movement there, they both have a lever effect on the trailer. The fifth wheel is 8 inches down and the goose-neck is 12 inches down is all i am saying. I know you will not agree that is just the way I see it.

[Mile_High]

copeland343 wrote:
I have towed fifth wheels with both a goose-neck adapter and a full tilt fifth wheel hitch and old style fifth wheel. The following is what I have seen. The goose-neck moves the pivot point down about 12 inches. The full tilting (fore/aft and side/side)fifth wheel hitch moves the pivot point down about 8 inches (tilt pin located 8 inches down). A old style fifth wheel moves the pivot point fore/aft down about 4 inches and side/side down to the axles (no side/side on old style). My opinion only about 4 inches between goose-neck and full tilt hitches I do not see a problem here. No I am not a engineer just years and many miles of towing. Now let the hate begin.

That reasoning doesn't work for me. It doesn't matter where the pivot point is, what matters is the load point where the pin puts stress on the frame of the trailer. In other words the trailer gets pulled by the pin, regardless of what's underneath. The gooseneck moves that pin point down about 12 inches like you say, putting that much more stress on the frame around the pinbox when the trailer is pulled.

[The_Mad_Norsky]

copeland343:

the problem arises because the vast majority of fifth wheel manufacturers will not warranty any pin box area or frame damage if a gooseneck style hitch is used.

Now from previous posting here, as well as a quick check of the web site, it does appear Lippert approves of the Reese Goose Box style hitch in question here.

Again, the Reese Goose Box is an entirely different set up than the old style gooseneck hitches so commonly used, best illustrated by the photo several posts ago shown by Me Again's post, showing the Cardinal fifth wheel in Yuma. That is the, at least to me, old style, regular gooseneck hitch.

[copeland343]

I have towed fifth wheels with both a goose-neck adapter and a full tilt fifth wheel hitch and old style fifth wheel. The following is what I have seen. The goose-neck moves the pivot point down about 12 inches. The full tilting (fore/aft and side/side)fifth wheel hitch moves the pivot point down about 8 inches (tilt pin located 8 inches down). A old style fifth wheel moves the pivot point fore/aft down about 4 inches and side/side down to the axles (no side/side on old style). My opinion only about 4 inches between goose-neck and full tilt hitches I do not see a problem here. No I am not a engineer just years and many miles of towing. Now let the hate begin.

[face_down]

The Mad Norsky wrote:
:h

cannot remember seeing this, so I will ask; did you even check with Keystone/Montana as to their thoughts of using the hitch you have?????

Does not matter what Reese says or told you. They'll never admit any liability, as they surely do not want to be held responsible for your repair bill.

I just purchased a Carbon 357 and spoke with the East Coast Keytone sales manager. When asking about 5th Wheel to Gooseneck adpaters he stated that there is only one that Keystone approves and will not affect warranty, and it is the Reese Goose Box.