class A safety

[bmwdriver2019]

good morning all
im pretty new to rving and learning as much as i can , im a retired bmw tech with 20 years under my belt . and proud of it, so i know pretty much the auto business
my fiancée and i on my retirement purchased a 2014 winnebgao vista 35f from our camping world , they were totally awesome, the motorhome only had about 6k miles , we purchased it in Jan of 2020, then covid hit
on our first venture out or as my fiancee called it a " shake down " cruise , and it was , up to 50 mph it was smooth sailing ,above 50 , it was like driving in a tornado , back of the speed , smooth as silk, after speaking with many people who have the same exact motorhome as we ,i come to find out that a rear track bar and front steering dampener is needed to correct this issue, and one person stated, i can bet it will fix your problems , for they had the same issue as many other people did , well, we had the items installed and it was smooth up to 65 mph , we would not drive normally faster than 55/60 mph for safetys sake , this is NOT a bmw ,lollol, nor handle like one
my issue is how foes ford and winnebago and others get away with concerns for safety on the f53 chassis as they do , the f53 chassis is a cookie cutter chassis where one size fits all, and from hearing and reading what people do to correct the safety issue of the f53 chassis dilemmas , where people have the white knuckle affect as if they were flying in a plane for the first time , im very curious of how the NHTSA would feel on non corrected safety and handling issues of the class a motorhome ??/ as not being a person who cares for ford in any way , but we bought the motorhome for the winnebago name , defiantly not ford , for i do feel they do as little as possible in pretty much all they do
having many friends who are seasoned rvers and alot more experience than i and some actually been a cdl truck driver in the past actually prefered the gm work horse chassis liked it entirely better for the way it handled, it did not have the safety and handling issues of the f53 chassis does, why this is allowed and nobody questions it as it do ,,,,,,, it affects numerous rv makers chassis , and the basic body doesnt matter who made it , its the chassis improvements that change the handling ,its nothing to the body , i do believe there surely needs to a higher standard than whats there , and since ford right now has a monopoly on class A chassis they are doing as they do with as little as possible which is par for the course with them , i do believe IF GM was manufacturing class A rv chassis , to a degree it would be to a higher standard than what is there now

[Onyrlef]

MetalGator wrote:

Ponderosa wrote:
I'm convinced much of the problem has to do with the driver. When I brought mine home from Florida to Arizona it was white knuckle terror for almost the entire trip. It seemed to lurch from side to side in the lane and require constant correction. As I drove more, even on that trip it got easier. Now, I pretty much one hand it and it's steady. What changed? Me. I learned not to overcorrect on every little movement. It is not a conscious thing, just experience. My advice for those new to the Class A game would be to give it some time before you drop big bucks on chassis mods.

One mod I do recommend - a steering ball, aka suicide knob (no, they are not illegal). It makes maneuvering the beast in tight quarters and right turns and backing so much easier.


I'm a sample of one and likewise first time or two I drove our 32'w/ f53 chassis and even with all the suspension mods short of LS it was harrowing. Now it's just more or less a day in the park. Being overly sensitive to the slightest movement and over correcting was mostly the problem for me. As far as culpability for not adding a trac bar and safe steer or what have you as OEM standard features it's a just a matter of simple economics and ubiquity. How many more f53 chassis would be sold with the suspension upgrades vs. chassis's without and your answer lie in how many more coaches would Jayco sell with furniture that won't delaminate in 3-5 years as would they suppose with a quality furniture upholstery. Answer is likely few if any. Either all chassis would need to feature the suspension upgrades and all Jayco coaches feature upholstery that's not waiting to fail or
none.

[Cloud_Dancer]

The title of this thread is Class A Safety. Here's something I know: For a motorhome to be safe on the road, it must FIRST be in the hands of a good safe driver! I know a great deal about what it takes to be good driver and also be a safe driver. But, this thread quickly turned into a discussion about the quality of the Design and the HANDLING character of motorhomes. Motor vehicle chassis dynamics is something I studied. And, at age 83, I've had plenty of time to learn much about motorhomes.
I would like to help the OP, therefore I will attempt to make contact with him by private message.

[LouLawrence]

Bragging about being a BMW tech (over and over again) and believing that this somehow means you completely understand the RV business is quite off putting. Just because I am an expert in say, the internet, does not mean I know anything Comcast cable. You should climb down from your self appointed claims of expertise and listen to some of the actual expert advice that has been offered.

[way2roll]

MetalGator wrote:

Ponderosa wrote:
I'm convinced much of the problem has to do with the driver. When I brought mine home from Florida to Arizona it was white knuckle terror for almost the entire trip. It seemed to lurch from side to side in the lane and require constant correction. As I drove more, even on that trip it got easier. Now, I pretty much one hand it and it's steady. What changed? Me. I learned not to overcorrect on every little movement. It is not a conscious thing, just experience. My advice for those new to the Class A game would be to give it some time before you drop big bucks on chassis mods.

One mod I do recommend - a steering ball, aka suicide knob (no, they are not illegal). It makes maneuvering the beast in tight quarters and right turns and backing so much easier.

I totally agree with this. I had never driven a class A before we purchased ours. I had alway had travel trailers.

When I left the dealership to take the motorhome to my storage garage, I was not expecting the way it drove. As you say, I was white knuckled for the 50 mile drive. On the first drive, I was going through my head all the suspension mods I was going to do. After a few trips, I go used to how it drove and now after 5 years, I am totally happy with the way it drives. 99 percent of my so thought handling issues were just me not being used to driving it. Saved a lot of money on suspension modes.

Now that's not to say suspension mods wouldn't make it handle better but in my case it would be a waste of money.

Burch

Agree with all of this. Heck when I get in my own different vehicles it's takes me a few miles to remember how each on handles differently. It's really fun going from our new MH to our CRV to my 87 jeep lifted with big tires. Every vehicle handles different especially MH's.

[MetalGator]

Ponderosa wrote:
I'm convinced much of the problem has to do with the driver. When I brought mine home from Florida to Arizona it was white knuckle terror for almost the entire trip. It seemed to lurch from side to side in the lane and require constant correction. As I drove more, even on that trip it got easier. Now, I pretty much one hand it and it's steady. What changed? Me. I learned not to overcorrect on every little movement. It is not a conscious thing, just experience. My advice for those new to the Class A game would be to give it some time before you drop big bucks on chassis mods.

One mod I do recommend - a steering ball, aka suicide knob (no, they are not illegal). It makes maneuvering the beast in tight quarters and right turns and backing so much easier.

I totally agree with this. I had never driven a class A before we purchased ours. I had alway had travel trailers.

When I left the dealership to take the motorhome to my storage garage, I was not expecting the way it drove. As you say, I was white knuckled for the 50 mile drive. On the first drive, I was going through my head all the suspension mods I was going to do. After a few trips, I go used to how it drove and now after 5 years, I am totally happy with the way it drives. 99 percent of my so thought handling issues were just me not being used to driving it. Saved a lot of money on suspension modes.

Now that's not to say suspension mods wouldn't make it handle better but in my case it would be a waste of money.

Burch

[bmwdriver2019]

thank you again,

[way2roll]

bmwdriver2019 wrote:
good morning all
i sincerely do appreciate all the comments, what i dont understand is the following and im being totally open minded about it in reference to the ford f53 chassis handling issues some have experienced
1 - why does it happen on many class a motorhomes and not on others
2- why is when just the ADDITION of a rear track bar end all handling issues that were once there as i have experienced and countless others?and with no other change being made what so ever , and driving at the same speed , and higher and on the same exact roadways and in the same type of weather conditions and with no change to tire pressure and or alignment ??
this is my question , some have stated that its the fault of winnebago , how , they made the coach , not the chassis , the added rear track bar is added to the chassis , at least as of this week it is , somebody had stated that why didnt Winnebago moved the obd 2 connection port as recommended by ford , well to be honest , its not a big deal to me, and its surely not a safety issue , more of a convivence issue , as a bmw tech , i have done more in my day than most, replacing complete body harneses in a 7 series , rebuilding and setting up suspensions after a crash , and never had an issue, my problem is i do think out of the box, and at times , things must be questioned, at least when it comes to safety, yours and mine
thank you again

Per #1 - It happens on some and not others because Ford builds the chassis for many uses. (we've all said this over and over) Every motorhome manufacturer buys them and builds dozens of different floorplans and configurations. Some have full wall slides, some have multiple slides, some are 27 feet some are 37 feet, etc etc. So, all the houses on those chassis are different, loaded different and built different. What happens when you take one chassis and build a bunch of different houses on them? None of them will handle the same. Is this Ford's fault? No. How in the world can they be responsible for the hundreds of configurations that dozens of different manufactures build on them? Would you put the onus on a stud manufacturer because builders put them in sideways and a wall won't stand up?

#2, trac bars won't solve all handling issues so this is not a one size fits all. Just so happened it addressed your issue. Most have success with proper alignment and psi adjustments. The F53 doesn't need trac bars in a lot of cases. My 2 previous gas MH's never had them.

This will be my last post on this. Seems you are willing to die on this hill despite every post trying desperately to educate you on this subject. You aren't looking at it open mindedly. If you were you'd have gotten it by now. If you don't get, you don't get it. And you keep reminding us of all your accomplishments at BMW. We are talking about Ford chassis MH's - so you might as well compare oranges to basketballs.

[bmwdriver2019]

good morning all
i sincerely do appreciate all the comments, what i dont understand is the following and im being totally open minded about it in reference to the ford f53 chassis handling issues some have experienced
1 - why does it happen on many class a motorhomes and not on others
2- why is when just the ADDITION of a rear track bar end all handling issues that were once there as i have experienced and countless others?and with no other change being made what so ever , and driving at the same speed , and higher and on the same exact roadways and in the same type of weather conditions and with no change to tire pressure and or alignment ??
this is my question , some have stated that its the fault of winnebago , how , they made the coach , not the chassis , the added rear track bar is added to the chassis , at least as of this week it is , somebody had stated that why didnt Winnebago moved the obd 2 connection port as recommended by ford , well to be honest , its not a big deal to me, and its surely not a safety issue , more of a convivence issue , as a bmw tech , i have done more in my day than most, replacing complete body harneses in a 7 series , rebuilding and setting up suspensions after a crash , and never had an issue, my problem is i do think out of the box, and at times , things must be questioned, at least when it comes to safety, yours and mine
thank you again

[Dutch_12078]

bmwdriver2019 wrote:
well thank you sandia man , im being very open minded here, i have spoken to many people whom are friends and on facebook , they all pretty much experinced the same issue as i , they made the addition of a rear track bar , and it was another vehicle and having alot less stress,it was like driving in a tornado before the rear track bar installation afterwards, smooth as silk , i have heard this from many rv owners , not just on winnebagos , due to ford makes a cookie cutter chassis , one size fits all , they build them as cheaply as possible , and the motorhome coach builder wont add it on since they are NOT building the chassis, just the motorhome , to me its a safety issue , no less , and im headstrong about this , funny how sao many people have experienced the same issue, and some have not ,

I'm certainly in the camp that has not experienced your issues. I've owned two F53 based motorhomes, and driven many more that were in our shop for service. Both of my own handled and still handle comfortably at 65-75 MPH speeds and I only rarely ran into a customer's F53 based coach that handled badly. Typically as said, those were corrected with a proper alignment and proper tire inflation. My current motorhome did have what we call the "Cheap Handling Fix" done by a previous owner, but all that amounts to is moving the sway bar links to a different set of holes as provided by Ford. The coach manufacturer could have made the same simple mod, but then they couldn't even be bothered with moving the OBD2 plug to a more accessible location as recommended by Ford in the body builders manual that covers the stripped chassis. Is that Ford's fault too?

[JaxDad]

bmwdriver2019 wrote:
… to me its a safety issue , no less , and im headstrong about this , funny how sao many people have experienced the same issue, and some have not ….

As Abraham Lincoln once said “You can’t believe everything you read on the internet.”

If you read the vast majority of stuff out there on the interwebs you’d come to conclusion the Ford Pinto was a death trap too.

If you read the FACTS however, you’d see the Chevy Vega had a worse safety record.

My Class A (Itasca 34’ Sunrise) is bone stock, it goes down the road amazingly well considering the size, shape and weight of it.

Of course cross-winds will affect something with more than 400 square feet of sail area, but what else would a sane person expect?

[opnspaces]

bmwdriver2019 wrote:
funny how sao many people have experienced the same issue, and some have not ,

Based on all your posts it's pretty obvious that you believe Ford is at fault and should be responsible to change a proven design. Your statement above is even further proof that you are convinced and nothing is going to change your mind.

How can you say "so many" people have experienced it and "some" have not? Where is your data aside from a facebook group and some people you know.

I'll bet Ford has built at least 100,000 units that were turned into an RV. So to use your type of reasoning to reinforce your point.

It's a well known fact that people that are happy with their purchase may never say a word or possibly tell a friend. But a person who is unhappy will tell 10. Now let's assume that you have actually heard from 100 people that they were unhappy and a rear track bar fixed the issue.

This leaves 99,900 people who are happy with their well behaved rig without the added rear track bar. Meaning in actuality "so many" people are happy and "some" are not.

[bmwdriver2019]

well thank you sandia man , im being very open minded here, i have spoken to many people whom are friends and on facebook , they all pretty much experinced the same issue as i , they made the addition of a rear track bar , and it was another vehicle and having alot less stress,it was like driving in a tornado before the rear track bar installation afterwards, smooth as silk , i have heard this from many rv owners , not just on winnebagos , due to ford makes a cookie cutter chassis , one size fits all , they build them as cheaply as possible , and the motorhome coach builder wont add it on since they are NOT building the chassis, just the motorhome , to me its a safety issue , no less , and im headstrong about this , funny how sao many people have experienced the same issue, and some have not ,

[Sandia_Man]

Well, I can see your beef with your class A rig if driving above 50 mph causes the dreaded white knuckle effect. When shopping for our current class A we viewed/drove 2 dozen units across 4 states over 2 years, whether diesel or gasser, they all did relatively fine at 50-65mph, no white knuckle events, of course this is in fair weather conditions.

When we picked up our Monaco gasser first summer of pandemic a few years ago, we had to drive through record breaking Texas heat back home to NM. We drove the entire way at 65-80mph. Before this purchase I had never drove a 40' long, 13' high, 9'wide, square block down the road (towing 5K# GMC toad) at highways speeds, all things considered it was a pretty smooth and uneventful ride home.

Only issue which significantly affects our ride quality is high winds, rain is no issue, but we experience crazy wind during our Springs here in NM. After hearing your improved ride quality results with installed rear trac bar, it definitely has me thinking of adding one as Springtime is nearly upon us. We still have factory Bilsteins and bump stops, probably get around to changing them out this year too.

[Rick_Jay]

bmwdriver2019,

With all due respect, while you say there are many who think the way that you do that this is a Ford issue, there are are apparently many who do not share those same thoughts. I'm still in the camp that says if the chassis is properly aligned, proper air pressure in the tires and it IS NOT overloaded, it's going to perform like a big ol' heavy vehicle! LOL That's what it is. Apparently people are having mixed results with their own respective rigs. But how many of them have actually weighed their rigs, adjusted the tire air pressure accordingly, and actually have had it to an alignment shop to have it aligned fully loaded and ready to travel? Not many, I can tell you. The vast majority of RV'ers have never even weighed their rigs and have no idea if they are overloaded or not. The assumption is that if there's storage space, they can fill it and carry it! True on some rigs, not on others. Only weighing the rig will reveal how close the chassis is to its weight limits. But I digress...

That said, if you really feel adamant about blaming Ford, then you should direct your energy toward NHTSA. THEY are the ones that IF there really is a problem, could do something about it. There's a "Report a Safety Problem" link right on their home page. At least contact them and report the problem and see what their response is?

I'd be interested in hearing their response.

Good Luck,

~Rick