Help with a value please! Looking to purchase...

[just_justin]

So, I have been looking for a while and finally found a Class C that I like, checked it out, talked to the guy and cant really find any solid value on it, so I thought I would check here.

It is a 2003 Coachman Leprechaun 290RF with a Diesel....a 7.3 diesel. 68K miles, in really good shape with your typical options. Now, NADA doesn't even list a diesel as an option for that year. When I run the Chassis's vin, it does come back as a 2003 E-450 with the 7.3. Running the coach VIN returns nothing.

He was asking 27k, got him down to 22k, and I am ready to jump on it, but I dont want to call the bank only for them to give me the run around!

Any help would be appreciated!

[PatJ]

Interesting. I do see that now. I wonder if the motor home package is available only the E450. I can't recall where I read that the E350 was (or will be) discontinued.

Thanks Drew for the correction!

You may be thinking of the fact that the van (not a cutaway) has been discontinued. The E350 and E450 are now only available as incomplete vehicles. My rig is on a 2019 E350.

In my pre-purchase research I learned the E350 and E450 are now essentially identical, except for frame thicknesses and axle widths of some wheelbases. The things that used to be different (brakes, cooling system, axle ratio, etc) are now the same.

I also learned the E350 is now considered "medium duty" (the E450 always was) which is why it was able to keep the V10. The V10 is not noise or emissions certified for light duty vehicles anymore, but its Ford's only gas engine certified for class 4-7 vehicles (until 2020.)

So I guess in a way the E350 of old was discontinued. But they still use the E350 name on a medium-duty-only cutaway with the same drivetrain as the E450.

[just_justin]

So I did end up passing on that one....thanks everyone for the input. Not only did the bank have a problem with the value to loan ratio but all of the little things pointed out here really added to the gut instinct to walk away.

So, the search continued for a very short time, within hours of notifying the seller that I wasn't getting it, a 2001 30 footer showed up on craigslist that was meticulously cared for by an ASE Certified master mechanic that works for UPS (as a mechanic). The value was there so the bank was happy, it was almost $6k cheaper so I was happy and it is a gasser with a gas genny. Although I wasn't looking for one with a slideout, this one does have one for the couch, really opens it up and doesn't sacrifice ANY space when it is in! So we are thrilled!
Came with a 2nd transmission (spare), full RV cover, new awning in the box, rear air bags and a ton of other positives! Dude already sent me a pick of the $100k diesel pusher he replaced it with lol. That one had me drooling!


Again, thanks all for the help!

[CapeDave]

Owners can ask any thing they want but it took me a 1 1/2 years
of looking at the same overpriced used MH to finally find what
I was looking for at a decent price.

FWI NADA is for when the dealers want to buy not when they want to

SELL!

Good luck in your search!

[ppine]

Look up similar rigs for sale on Craigslist and RVTrader, etc. Adjust the price up for a diesel. The market is a better test than NADA.

[Rick_Jay]

just_justin,

Keep on searching. 🙂 We started our search looking for a small tow behind for our Honda Odyssey back in 2002. Then looked at travel trailers to pull with a full-size van, then looked at C's, and were almost sold, except couldn't find one with enough cargo carrying capacity for our crew of 6 with the space we wanted. We ultimately ended up with the Class A TOWING our Odyssey as in my signature and have been very happy with that decision ever since.

My point being, take your time and do LOTS of research, just like you've been doing. The folks on this board were absolutely instrumental in helping us make decisions over the 2 year process to finally purchase our first RV. We started as complete newbies so we needed a lot of guidance. We still have that RV, so it does pay off to buy the right one the first time.

I think you're starting to get a good handle on what to look for. A good floorplan is probably on the top of the list, but then chassis considerations (weight, towing, etc.) also come into play.

Keep up the research and don't be a stranger! The wealth of knowledge on these forums is amazing. Sure, a couple of us might get "grumpy" from time to time, but take everything with a grain of salt and you'll learn plenty.

Good Luck on your search!

~Rick

[ron_dittmer]

DrewE wrote:

ron.dittmer wrote:

Maybe last year in 2018, or this year in 2019, Ford discontinued the E350 chassis because of it's limited production. The E450 comes now in all 3 wheel bases.

The Ford web site lists the E350 cutaway as a 2019 model. It also lists both the E350 and E450 stripped chassis. If they're eliminating the E350, it would seem to be in the 2020 model year.

Interesting. I do see that now. I wonder if the motor home package is available only the E450. I can't recall where I read that the E350 was (or will be) discontinued.

Thanks Drew for the correction!

[DrewE]

ron.dittmer wrote:

Maybe last year in 2018, or this year in 2019, Ford discontinued the E350 chassis because of it's limited production. The E450 comes now in all 3 wheel bases.

The Ford web site lists the E350 cutaway as a 2019 model. It also lists both the E350 and E450 stripped chassis. If they're eliminating the E350, it would seem to be in the 2020 model year.

[ron_dittmer]

Regarding frame extensions and wheel base adjustments, Rick Jay covered it well. I am just getting into the nitty-gritty.

The Ford E350 and E450 straight from Ford, have the same length frame from the rear axle to the rear of the frame. The difference is the gauge of the frame, the E350 frame is 0.228" thick, the E450 is 0.248" thick.

RV manufactures almost always add frame extensions behind the rear axle.
Frame extensions provide undercarriage space for waste tanks, outdoor storage, and other items, for example a generator.

RV manufactures with their variety of floor plans, they often increase and have been known to decrease a stock wheel base. Stock wheel bases are 138", 158", and 176".

Ford provides special components for wheel base modification. Components impacted from a wheel base adjustment are as follows.
- length of drive shaft or additional drive shaft
- exhaust pipe
- fuel lines
- brake lines
- parking brake cable
- wiring harness
- the frame itself
Some items are replaced while others are added in-line.

Specifically about the frame itself, the original frame is cut, extra frame is welded in-line for an extended wheel base, then the impacted area is reinforced with additional steel plating.

Wheel bases are adjusted to accommodate the requirements of the floor plan. One example is, you can't have a toilet too close over the rear axle, nor opposite the rear axle from the waste tank. The wheel base is also adjusted to better distribute the load of the house and contents to all 6 tires.

Any modification to the frame (wheel base or rear extension) has to follow the modification spec Q-18 provided by Ford. If you search the web, you can find those specs.

When shopping for a motor home, if you want an unmodified Ford chassis, then you want a stock Ford wheel base of 138", 158", or 176". The E350 was offered in all 3, the E450 in the longer 2. By chance, our 2007 E350 rig has a stock 158" wheel base. I have some comfort in knowing our Ford E350 has all standard components and uncut frame.

Maybe last year in 2018, or this year in 2019, Ford discontinued the E350 chassis because of it's limited production. The E450 comes now in all 3 wheel bases.

[just_justin]

Thanks Rick! After much contemplating and more researching I guess I am not going to go with this one. It is priced a little high and with the negligible power difference between the E450 Diesel and the V10 it's not a huge gain. That combined with the propane generator, that I never thought about, makes it not worth it. So the search continues!

[Rick_Jay]

just_justin,

I just want to make sure you have the right info while you're making your decision.

just_justin wrote:
and as far as the frame/extensions, that's why I wanted a 450, frame is 1 piece all the way back....there are no extensions, 350s stop right behind axle and the rest is pretty much body. The ...towing capacity and therefore GCWR is determined by the engine, trans and rear axle/gearing. An E450 with the 7.3 can most certainly tow more than an E450 with the V10. Motorhome or not...

Frame Extensions: I believe all of the longer E-450 RVs have frame extensions behind the rear wheels over the stock chassis. There may or may not be extensions to lengthen the wheelbase. The E-450s may not require the extensions to lengthen the wheelbase, but there most likely are extensions behind the rear wheels.

The towing capacity is what the manufacturer says it is. Engine, transmission & gearing are part of the equation, but frame, brakes and suspension considerations may come into play as well as the actual hitch rating. To the best of my recollection, the diesel E-450s were rated EXACTLY THE SAME as the V10 E-450s as far as towing capabilities were concerned. Again, going from memory, they were 14,050 pounds GVWR and 20,000 lbs. GCWR for the E-450's.

Like I said, the diesel might give you a better towing "experience" in some situations, but that's about it. The numbers don't improve, other than perhaps MPGs. BUT, the fact that it comes with a propane generator would kill it for me. You'll be stopping for propane every trip so you can run the generator while travelling down the road to keep the AC cranking. Not worth it for me, which is why we stopped looking at the diesels back in our day.

As others have said, though, you seem to be sold on it, so hopefully it meets your expectations and then some! 🙂

~Rick

[Rick_Jay]

just_justin,

Like ron.dittmer points out, and I will agree, if it has a propane generator, the deal would be OFF for me. No way! I want a generator that burns the same fuel as the chassis engine.

The other thing to realize, I believe the 7.3 was detuned for the van chassis over what was put in the pickup trucks. I believe that was due to cooling/radiator space or something like that.

Also, the E450 chassis, especially on larger Class C's, can push the chassis weight limites. The diesel weighs quite a bit more than the gasser, so that uses up some of your carrying capacity. However, seeing as that weight is on the front axle, the front axle usually is underloaded in most E-450 RV applications, so it's probably not a huge deal.

Lastly, is the diesel, in my opinion, gets you a better experience towing, but NOT more towing capacity. That's still limited by the chassis. And, it'll give you a better experience if you're running at higher altitudes due to the turbocharger, but again, how often will that apply to your use. And, of course, the availability of diesel is sometimes a bit harder to find at regular gas stations, but if you're not averse to refueling at truck stops, it shouldn't be a problem.

WAY back when, when we were doing our research, when we were looking at Class C's, I wanted a diesel. However, after LOTS of research on the subject, I quickly learned that the V10 is quite up to the task of moving around a Class C, and the initial cost, having a generator & main engine that uses the same fuel, ease of finding stations to refuel really allowed me to cross the diesel idea off my list. Heck, that V10 is used in Class A's with 10,000 pounds more GVWRs.

Oh....one more lastly 🙂 Have you contacted your bank about this? I thought I've read posts about banks not making loans on RV's over 10 years old. Even if they do make such loans, they are likely to only loan the amount of the LOWEST value shown in the books. They don't care about options, diesels, or anything else, so be ready to cough up a lot of your own money to make up the balance. But, contact your bank and find out their policy. I believe people have said that their credit unions are generally easier to work with on purchases such as this, so keep that option in mind too! Oh, and I'd recommend keeping at least about $5,000 in reserve in a savings account should you have a major breakdown out on the road someplace.

It sounds like you're "sold" on it, though, so good luck with it, should you decide to buy it. But in my opinion, it's WAY over priced. I'd offer him the lowest price in the NADA guideline, leave your number, and tell him to contact you when he's serious about selling it. Its half-past September and the camping season is rapidly approaching an end. He may be willing to really deal IF he doesn't want to keep it through the winter.

Good Luck,

~Rick

[ron_dittmer]

Also, check the generator. Is it propane or diesel? I would not want a propane, too valuable of a fuel for other essentials.

[Hank85713]

the 7.3 while it was a good engine has many issues with it and will have some due to age. leaking bellows on the exhaust, might have a bad HPOP injectors could need R&R. Like you I searched for a diesel found a couple but the coachs were not suitable to the wife. So if ya can get a scanguage and take the rig for a good test drive with it installed (obd port) check for codes and anything else it shows.

Actually you need to find someone with knowledge on the 7.3 to look over the eng/trans to help ya decide if its the deal you think it is. My BIL has had several but bought the infamous 6.0 and said he would never go back to the 7.3. Its only advantage performance wise was mileage was better. He made his living as a logger and has worn out a lot of vehicles I can remember his 6.5 and the later PSD's. Another issue with the 7.3 is cab and external engine NOISE so just be aware.

[just_justin]

Thanks everyone, I have NADA'd it, talked to various dealerships and other friends/campers alike. There is just nothing to compare it to because of the diesel chassis. Considering that a nice comparable Class C (V10) around that year is 15-25K (some are even well into the 30's!), I am going to go ahead and get it. It is what I want and exactly what I am looking for. When I originally started looking I wrote off diesel as an option because I just wasn't seeing them so it is a nice bonus that I found one! I know I had the option of a DP but I have owned a Class A and have to say I am not a fan. I am sure the V10 would have towed what I am looking to tow, but with the 7.3, it wont work as hard, better fuel economy and better longevity.