Are our roads getting worse?

[Bowti]

We just finished our 4,000+ mile snowbird annual adventure, which left us feeling like our roads and interstates are worse than ever. It doesn't look like our government is able to keep up at all with road repairs. No wonder our tire discussions go on for ever.

What do you think?

[Sultan1966]

Taxes of any kind...No matter what anyone says it for.. Positive or Negative... Remember..
It’s For The Kids...

[goducks10]

Flarpswitch wrote:

Paul Clancy wrote:
Of the western states I have visited regularly the one that gets a prize for great roads .... Oregon. The others need to find out what they are doing and do that. My back thanks you Oregon tax payers.

All is not what it seems. Oregon is just as bad when it comes to how money is spent on roads and infrastructure. The main throughfares are ruined by studded tires on passenger cars. There are ruts in the highway where water collects and creates a hydroplaning hazard. I remember some years ago driving on I-5 up in Washington where the ruts were worse than in Oregon. As an experiment, I set the cruise control and with hands just above the steering wheel, but not touching, I was able to drive more than five miles with the ruts guiding the car as if it were on rails. I read in the newspaper that the powers that be are blaming trucks and other large vehicles for the wear and tear on the roads. I have news for you: trucks in Oregon are restricted to 55MPH and the distance between ruts matches the track of passenger cars not trucks. I also read somewhere else that a large distributer of tires lobbied against tougher laws for studded tires that would mandate winter tires that would do less damage to the roadway surfaces.

We need a replacement for the I-5 Bridge that crosses the Columbia River between Oregon and Washington State. They spent nearly half a billion dollars so far on the project and all we have is a stack of paper that claims to be some sort of 'Study'. For the most part, the roads in Oregon campare well to other locations, I will give you that. One thing I discovered in my travels in all of the Lower 48; the Interstate highways can be rough traveling and at times the traffic is taxing on the nerves. By driving the state roads I find that the road conditions are often better, traffic is less stressful, the scenery is better and you can cover a lot of ground in the same amount of time.

Trucks are now 60 mph on I-5. Just noticed that on my way to South Beach yesterday. Funny I was thinking while reading this article about how nice the roads were on the way down. A few sections on I-5 near Albany that need resurfacing but for the most part it was smooth sailing.

[Ralph_Cramden]

troubledwaters wrote:

gbopp wrote:

Ralph Cramden wrote:
450M is chump change and would build about 10-12 miles of new 4 lane highway if you were lucky on flat terrain with no bridges or interchanges.

I agree, 450 million will not go very far building roads. Repairing roads is a different story.
My point was, the PTC is required to generate 450 million for PennDot before it can do anything for the turnpike.
I also agree the PTC needs to be abolished.

WOW! That's one expensive highway, $10M per lane mile. What you using? Gold bricks?

I didn't know I was preparing a detailed estimate to be thrown in the mix at crunch/bid time, but had anticipated an RV net heavy/highway expert would be along soon enough to get me into the low bidder realm prior to it lol. So ok.....450M might get you 16-18 miles of 4 lane if the estimating dept is using Wikipedia as opposed to Heavybid or the like......but thats a big might, especially in PA.


@ geicher.......How can you justify the PTC spending multi millions of dollars installing those 20' high structural screen walls during the upgrade process to 6 lane? I am sure you have seen the amount of those between Irwin and New Stanton, or Butler Valley and Warrendale? I can understand where they're required for embankment stabilizing purposes, but to screen off homes and neighborhoods that came to be long after the pike is an absolute waste of money. That BS is coming from residents during the public comment phase of the design and permitting, and for those that choose to build a home next to an existing heavily traveled highway......live with your decision. Its also driven by the corruption that is the PTC or don't you buy into that it exists. Follow the money. The cost of those walls is astronomical, and would go a long way towards construction and maintenance costs on things that count, as well as maybe holding the line on tolls a little. By the way your $55 will be $119.45 by 2026 at the 9% annual increases coming along that have already been stated as gospel by the PTC. What happened to the original charter? The one that said the tolls were to be eliminated once the original pike paid for itself, which it did in the 1960's. I remember when I was discharged from the USAF in 1981, and drove through Kentucky on their parkway system where you stopped and tossed coins into baskets. At least KY kept their word, as those tolls were eliminated as soon as the bonds were paid off for the construction. Here in PA they decided to line their pockets with it and kick it back to their buddies who own construction and material companies, and the trade unions.

[zcookiemonstar]

tinstartrvlr wrote:
As Aridon said:

"Folks generally don't support tax hikes. We can afford to bomb and build roads in other third world countries more readily than taking care of our own infrastructure"

The answer is all in the priorities, and every other country in the world seems to be more of a priority than our own.

It is much cheaper to build those roads. After the area is bombed you no longer need to pay all that money to do studies about what kind of insect or animal that road will effect. There is nothing left to study.

[JIMNLIN]

Pot holes are bad now.
Part of the problem is the state will send a crew out with load of hot asphalt and shovels. They fill the holes but the next rain or two and that hot asphalt is beat out again.
Most counties around here most of the time use a hot tar/gravel spray mix to fill holes in county roads....and they stay filled and smooth unless the road bed has a ground water problem.

Want to know about our interstate and major trucking routes look in on truckers/truck companies websites. Right now lots of print and you tubes about our crumbling highways.

[ppine]

It depends on the time frame you want to consider. In the 1960s there were few interstate highways and we had no choice but to drive through every town on the highway. I remember driving Route 66 in a 1957 Chevy and going 45-50 mph most of the way. There were a lot of new roads back then and in the 1970s.

Each state maintains their own roads with Federal matching funds. California roads are some of the worst that I ever drive on. I had a new Ford pickup with a TC and frame tie downs. I drove over to CA and dinged up the bed of my brand new truck on the Interstate! I was really pissed off. In the last 25 years or so roads in the West have continued to get worse. Nevada roads tend to be pretty good in comparison.

[77rollalong]

well here in Ontario we seem to have 2 seasons Winter and road repairs, they seem to fix the same roads every year, and the snow plows rip all the patches up from the previous years repairs...

[Flarpswitch]

Paul Clancy wrote:
Of the western states I have visited regularly the one that gets a prize for great roads .... Oregon. The others need to find out what they are doing and do that. My back thanks you Oregon tax payers.

All is not what it seems. Oregon is just as bad when it comes to how money is spent on roads and infrastructure. The main throughfares are ruined by studded tires on passenger cars. There are ruts in the highway where water collects and creates a hydroplaning hazard. I remember some years ago driving on I-5 up in Washington where the ruts were worse than in Oregon. As an experiment, I set the cruise control and with hands just above the steering wheel, but not touching, I was able to drive more than five miles with the ruts guiding the car as if it were on rails. I read in the newspaper that the powers that be are blaming trucks and other large vehicles for the wear and tear on the roads. I have news for you: trucks in Oregon are restricted to 55MPH and the distance between ruts matches the track of passenger cars not trucks. I also read somewhere else that a large distributer of tires lobbied against tougher laws for studded tires that would mandate winter tires that would do less damage to the roadway surfaces.

We need a replacement for the I-5 Bridge that crosses the Columbia River between Oregon and Washington State. They spent nearly half a billion dollars so far on the project and all we have is a stack of paper that claims to be some sort of 'Study'. For the most part, the roads in Oregon campare well to other locations, I will give you that. One thing I discovered in my travels in all of the Lower 48; the Interstate highways can be rough traveling and at times the traffic is taxing on the nerves. By driving the state roads I find that the road conditions are often better, traffic is less stressful, the scenery is better and you can cover a lot of ground in the same amount of time.

[jplante4]

And while we're on the subject, another stoooopid road building practice. They pave a section of the local interstate after potholes virtually destroy the road surface. It's all nice and smooth, and then they come along with this machine that digs into the pavement on the lane markers and inserts a reflector. Now, this isn't a reflector like you see in California, it's embedded into the road surface so the plows don't scrape it off. After a couple of weeks, road dirt covers the reflector and it's less than useless.

In a few years after the freeze thaw cycle has buckled up the road at the point where the reflectors were inserted, they repeat the process.

[tinstartrvlr]

As Aridon said:

"Folks generally don't support tax hikes. We can afford to bomb and build roads in other third world countries more readily than taking care of our own infrastructure"

The answer is all in the priorities, and every other country in the world seems to be more of a priority than our own.

[RGar974417]

Part of the problem is the expense due to rules like paying prevailing wages,having to do environmental work like bog turtle studies and having your engineer draw up plans which are submitted to PennDOT and then have PennDOT's engineers send them back marked up and then you resubmit and it keeps going like this until engineering costs are through the roof. Having worked with PennDOT,I can tell you how costly their rules maake road and bridge construction more expensive.

[gheicher]

gbopp wrote:

Ralph Cramden wrote:
450M is chump change and would build about 10-12 miles of new 4 lane highway if you were lucky on flat terrain with no bridges or interchanges.

I agree, 450 million will not go very far building roads. Repairing roads is a different story.
My point was, the PTC is required to generate 450 million for PennDot before it can do anything for the turnpike.
I also agree the PTC needs to be abolished.

The PA Turnpike is expensive, however the bulk of the over $1 billion dollar revenue goes toward operating cost - Administrative cost is approx. $378 Million. One current large expense is expanding the complete length of the turnpike to three lanes.

My point is that operating an interstate highway is expensive and I don't believe PA Dept of Transportation could do any better. Some have argued to privatize the PTC but that rarely works unless there is competition. Toll cost for an automobile the entire length of the Turnpike is $55 cash and $40 EZpass, 80,000 lb truck $355 cash and $255 EZpass.

Toll roads are expensive but those who use such roads pay the cost (not Grandma that only drives to church once a week). Personally I would like to see all interstate roads tolled. However, would like to see the toll based more on total weight rather than just the number of axles.
PA Turnpike Operating Budget
PA Turnpike 2017 Financial Report

[docsouce]

Well I have noticed that it seems when a small bridge that handles light traffic volume needs to be replaced, the thing is shut down for years and replaced with a monstrosity that is fit for Interstate traffic. Noticed too that when an simple intersection is "redesigned" the end product is a multi laned affair with all the traffic leaving the intersection being funneled into the same single lane road that existed before with drivers cutting off other drivers to get ahead... Common sense seems like an antiquated concept.

However, I too have a very good idea why this all seems to be true, but I'll keep it to myself also.

[travelnutz]

The roads and bridges in West Michigan are in very good shape and nearly all are good to very smooth. We have freeze and thaw constantly which really affects cement roads with heaving. However, blacktopped roads don't fare that well either as potholes pop open if or when water gets under the blacktop and freezes but fortunately they are very quick around here to patch the holes fast even in winter if they occur. Yes, new roads and bridges are being constructed in our state like the new M-231 with limited access and a 8/10ths mile long bridge across the Grand River for instance. US-31 4 lane divided along the lakeshore with most of it being limited access. The M-6 limited access freeway being totally rebuilt/resurfaced around the south side of Grand Rapids. US-131 freeway thru Grand Rapids. Also I-96 and I-196 E/W thru downtown Grand Rapids.

Now the roads and highways in the Detroit/region area are another story and I won't get into the details as it's mostly politics which is not allowed on the forum. Michigan is now a "Right to Work" state for about 5 years now and we here in West Michigan have seen a huge difference in what has been accomplished on the roads since with the same annual dollars being spent. Also in/at the GR Ford International Airport (Michigan's 2nd largest airport) as the money goes so much further and so much more can be done with better quality projects with the same bucks/tax dollars.

Yes, at the same time we have built new hundreds of miles of paved and signed wide bike and pedestrian paths. Over 160 miles of them just in the area where we live. Done wisely, both can be done at the same time. Pet passenger train rail systems which are extremely expensive and mostly vastly underused suck so much of the roadway dollars away so there's so little left for what the roads tax and funds were supposed to be for!

BTW, the Grand Rapids MI metro area is well over a million population (MSA) presently and over 1.5 million including the surrounding area (CSA) and growing fast constantly. Not a small place by any stretch!