No brakes on trailer

[crazyro]

Hey guys and gals. Picked up a new to us travel trailer and can't get brakes to work at all. Had to be extra careful towing it. Plugged in, truck shows "Trailer not connected. Check brake wiring." message. Squeezing the brake controller to send full charge does nothing. (factory brake controller) Cleaned 7 pin connector with electrical contact cleaner, fine grade sandpaper. Lights all work. Checked any wiring I could. Didn't see any wires connected to frame so I'm assuming ground is done via ball? Battery is brand new. When I pull the breakaway switch, there's no whine, no sound, nothing from brakes. I'm not in a place where I can take wheels off, but the only other thing I can think of is that maybe magnets are shot or seized and/or causing a short? Trailer sat for about a year and a half. I may just have to take it to a shop and let them check it out. Anything I could check? Camper is a 2002 Cedar Creek (35 RLS).

TIA.

[crazyro]

BobsYourUncle wrote:
Nice you finally got it figured out!
Feel good doesn't it?
🙂

Yes sir! Especially considering I had resolved to be ok with having to replace the entire braking system. 😄

Thank you for all your help!

[BobsYourUncle]

Nice you finally got it figured out!
Feel good doesn't it?
🙂

[crazyro]

Amazing update... Finally had the chance to go check on the camper (it's been raining for days here!) and, first plug into truck (after monkeying with the 7 pin connector last week), truck was completely happy! I hooked up and drove a bit and used brake controller - brakes on the trailer bit as they should. I am so relieved! The fact that RAM brake controllers have been recalled on years around mine and since the camper sat for a bit and since the previous owner didn't know much about it was the perfect storm for me to assume (yes, yes, I know, bad!) the worst and check all I could. What I've learned:

1. Sometimes the easiest solution is not the most obvious.
2. You guys are a wealth of knowledge and I'm thankful for you.
3. If a trailer has grounding issues, chances are position/brake/turn signals won't work so no need to chase that.
4. Truck will stop all 15,000 lbs if I ever lose brakes on trailer.
5. Wiring diagrams shared can come in handy, so thank you for sharing them!

Much appreciated again. I very much appreciate each and every answer and possible solution!

[2112]

Lynnmor wrote:
Not going to respond to all that "stuff", but here is just one item:

Hairline heat cracks are normal in bonded linings and should not be cause for concern.

This can be found on page 16.

Oh WOW, their example illustrates what looks to me as some serious cracking. I would have freaked out and tossed those shoes if I saw that on mine. Now I know. Thanks for sharing.

Read page 12 about tire skid. They say adjust the controller to tire slide on dry pavement while traveling 20 mph then back off just enough to eliminate tire skid. I don't do that either.

[Lynnmor]

Gdetrailer wrote:


It is why when a inspection mechanic told me that the found a crack in one of the brake shoes, I CHANGED ALL of the backing plates even though the brake lining was good on the other axles..

Not going to respond to all that "stuff", but here is just one item:

Hairline heat cracks are normal in bonded linings and should not be cause for concern.

This can be found on page 16.

[JRscooby]

cummins2014 wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:


Are we talking commercial here, I have a feeling some responses are talking commercial ,and not recreational Rv's here ,especially this skidding tire thing .

PA treats ALL trailers 3,001 lbs AND ABOVE THE SAME AS COMMERCIAL TRAILERS FOR SAFETY INSPECTION INCLUDING RV TRAILERS AND ARE SUBJECT TO HAVING TO PASS ALL INSPECTION REQUIREMENTS FOR THE SAFETY EQUIPMENT OF THAT TRAILER.

Brakes MUST work (visual check and operational check), breakaway MUST work (visual and operational check), outside safety lighting MUST WORK, TIRES must pass min tread depth, frame MUST not be rusted out or damaged.

3,000 lbs and under do not have a electric brake requirement and do not need a annual safety inspection.

Just because it is a RV, you don't get a free hall pass on safety inspection.

Just curious. not required in the state of Utah. It was sounding a bit commercial .

In my state, all trailers are inspected when bought, mostly to check the VIN. After that, you load a Bobcat, mower, or other tools, you might get stopped for a roadside safety inspection. The RV is unlikely to be checked as long as you own it. So for a RV, the only one that pays a penalty for non-functional brakes is the one injured in the accident.
But the trailer brakes under that Bobcat work just like the ones under RV. Everything I know about repairing the one will work to troubleshoot the other.
Before I retired, and a few times after, I have been called to fix lights or brakes on a trailer. I get there the wiring is all poked, pulled loose disconnected, and crossed up. And most times I get paid more for fixing what I can find the owner tore up because he assumed, or just as bad, plugged in the 6 little LED "tester", the TV is good! That is dropping if not the anvil, at least a hammer on your foot.

[cummins2014]

Gdetrailer wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:


Are we talking commercial here, I have a feeling some responses are talking commercial ,and not recreational Rv's here ,especially this skidding tire thing .

PA treats ALL trailers 3,001 lbs AND ABOVE THE SAME AS COMMERCIAL TRAILERS FOR SAFETY INSPECTION INCLUDING RV TRAILERS AND ARE SUBJECT TO HAVING TO PASS ALL INSPECTION REQUIREMENTS FOR THE SAFETY EQUIPMENT OF THAT TRAILER.

Brakes MUST work (visual check and operational check), breakaway MUST work (visual and operational check), outside safety lighting MUST WORK, TIRES must pass min tread depth, frame MUST not be rusted out or damaged.

3,000 lbs and under do not have a electric brake requirement and do not need a annual safety inspection.

Just because it is a RV, you don't get a free hall pass on safety inspection.

Just curious. not required in the state of Utah. It was sounding a bit commercial .

[Gdetrailer]

cummins2014 wrote:


Are we talking commercial here, I have a feeling some responses are talking commercial ,and not recreational Rv's here ,especially this skidding tire thing .

PA treats ALL trailers 3,001 lbs AND ABOVE THE SAME AS COMMERCIAL TRAILERS FOR SAFETY INSPECTION INCLUDING RV TRAILERS AND ARE SUBJECT TO HAVING TO PASS ALL INSPECTION REQUIREMENTS FOR THE SAFETY EQUIPMENT OF THAT TRAILER.

Brakes MUST work (visual check and operational check), breakaway MUST work (visual and operational check), outside safety lighting MUST WORK, TIRES must pass min tread depth, frame MUST not be rusted out or damaged.

3,000 lbs and under do not have a electric brake requirement and do not need a annual safety inspection.

Just because it is a RV, you don't get a free hall pass on safety inspection.

[Gdetrailer]

Lynnmor wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
Only pulling the trailer forwards or backwards will show just how good the brakes are working. In fact that IS one of the "tests" that my State Inspection mechanic does..

I've had trailers inspected in PA since 1977, and never once seen anyone do the pull test on brakes.

Inspection Mechanic can get audited, they have a check list of items they must check/test.. Most mechanics ignore doing their job and simply check off the boxes on their list..

Shop I go to, first item they do IS pull the pin and have me drive forward a couple of feet.

If they observe one or more tires not locking and skidding it is game over on the test and a fail on the inspection..

Turning tires do not count as a pass on the breakaway system.

They are to verify all lights work as they should.

They are to check tire condition/tread..

They are to pull one drum on each side and verify the brake lining is sufficient and condition is not cracked.

I am not sure just HOW anyone can fully access how good the braking system is working just by jacking a tire up, turning it by hand then pulling the pin..

Brake shoes and drum do wear and they do not wear the same on each drum.. So over time one or more brakes WILL need some adjustment, even the ones with auto adjusters will need some manual intervention once in a while.

PA inspection manual does not DIRECTLY say about lockup and skid but.. It states the following from HERE

Page 61..

"(c) Breakaway System - A trailer operated on a highway which is equipped with brakes or which has gross weight in excess of 3,000 pounds shall be equipped with a breakaway system which shall stop and hold the vehicle automatically upon breakaway from the towing vehicle."


The ONLY way to access that the breakaway and brakes are working and correctly adjusted IS TO PULL AHEAD UNDERLOAD.

Once again TURNING WHEELS WITH BREAKAWAY PIN PULLED DOES NOT COUNT AS A PASS here and yes, you can have fully functioning electrical part of the break away system but have a MECHANICAL issue preventing one or more brakes from fully engaging and locking.

Brakes can lockup when wheel is turned by hand but yet CAN turn when being pulled under load..

While the PA manual does not directly "describe" the exact method the mechanic should use, it IS clear that the brakes MUST function well enough to STOP AND HOLD the trailer.. Just because it stops turning by hand, it doesn't mean the brakes WILL stop and hold when under load.

Page 67 of same document states..

(d) Road Test - Perform a road test of a trailer over 3,000 pounds registered gross weight and reject if the vehicle is not capable of stopping within the maximum stopping distance prescribed in Table I or swerves so that any part leaves the 12 foot lane.

Yep, your inspection mechanic IS also supposed to do a road test..

And yes, PA treats ALL trailers including RVs the SAME as "commercial" trailers as far as inspection goes.. There is ZERO "exemptions" just because it is a RV trailer.. Somewhat working does not cut it and a good inspection mechanic will attempt to FIND any and all faults before signing off on the sticker.. It is their license on the line and if they pass something that isn't functioning well because they are to lazy to do their job, they will lose their license if they pass a substandard trailer.

And yes, I have run into some bad inspection mechanics that just slap stickers on. I don't go back to those as I WANT to find out if there is something I missed..

It is why when a inspection mechanic told me that the found a crack in one of the brake shoes, I CHANGED ALL of the backing plates even though the brake lining was good on the other axles..

You can do things well or do things half baked.. I like to error on the things done well side of life..

[JRscooby]

cummins2014 wrote:

Are we talking commercial here, I have a feeling some responses are talking commercial ,and not recreational Rv's here ,especially this skidding tire thing .

I'm not much smarter than a box of rocks, but have don't a lot of work with trailer lights and brakes over the years. Can somebody explain how the brakes know if they should be working for fun or profit?
From what I see the main difference is the probability of LEO checking the equipment.

[Lynnmor]

Gdetrailer wrote:
Only pulling the trailer forwards or backwards will show just how good the brakes are working. In fact that IS one of the "tests" that my State Inspection mechanic does..

I've had trailers inspected in PA since 1977, and never once seen anyone do the pull test on brakes.

[cummins2014]

JRscooby wrote:
On 1 of my posts that was deleted, I mentioned state DOT has a quick, dirty non-harmful way to decide if the electrical part of brake system is working; Hold a magnetic compass below center, next to hub, apply brakes.

How many pages ago I apparently pooped in the oatmeal when I gave my opinion about what happens when somebody assumes "this part is good". At least the OP has not stripped things down, just lots of typing.

Are we talking commercial here, I have a feeling some responses are talking commercial ,and not recreational Rv's here ,especially this skidding tire thing .

[JRscooby]

On 1 of my posts that was deleted, I mentioned state DOT has a quick, dirty non-harmful way to decide if the electrical part of brake system is working; Hold a magnetic compass below center, next to hub, apply brakes.

How many pages ago I apparently pooped in the oatmeal when I gave my opinion about what happens when somebody assumes "this part is good". At least the OP has not stripped things down, just lots of typing.

[cummins2014]

Gdetrailer wrote:

cummins2014 wrote:


Let me rephrase a little bit here , I don't care what is going on with my brakes ,I am not going to pull the breakaway ,and drag my fifth wheel or trailer one inch across anything to see if the brakes are working ,its not SMART . Come on ,think about the stress on the axles ,springs ,tires etc. There are much better ways ,a drive test for one , to see how the brakes are working . .

Your knowledge is based on a fear, not understanding or knowledge.

A fear of "damaging" the trailer, suspension, tires, truck, controller..

That is not knowledge, that is FEAR of the unknown of what you don't understand, know or are assuming.

You will definitely not harm or damage your trailer, your axles, your wheels just by pulling the breakaway pin and pulling forward one or two feet at extremely low speed (less than 1 MPH).. It isn't like you would do this like a race car driver..

If that small action harms your trailer, it was not built to proper specs with properly rated components for the max load of the trailer..

If on grass, you effectively have very little traction, tires will skid way before anything could ever possibly harmed.

If on gravel, same as grass, gravel moves and wheels don't spin free..

On pavement, take only slightly more effort but the tires WILL break traction way before you will cause harm.

Your trailer suspension takes a heck of a lot more abuse than what it will get from locking and sliding the wheels for one or two feet at a extremely slow speed.

As I mentioned, it IS something that my PA inspection mechanic MUST do in order to get a inspection sticker.. So far, out of three different trailers with brakes that procedure has not caused any damage to trailer, tires, suspension and one of the trailers is well over 30 yrs old!

You DO also realize that your trailer tires and suspension MUST "hop" when making extreme tight turns? The hole suspension pulls sideways one even two inches until the tire with least traction cannot hold the road anymore it breaks traction and the hole suspension snaps back into place.. It will do that over and over as long as you are making a tight radius turn..

Pulling forward slightly with virtually no speed will put far less "stress" on your trailer, axles, suspension, tires than under normal driving conditions..

You are more than welcome to continue doing it your way but, do realize there ARE safe "other ways" to do a check of the brakes/breakaway system that doesn't require using a jack or jacking up all of the tires one at a time.

And I will mention again, just because you can stop a wheel in the air with the breakaway activated, it is possible to do that even when the brakes are not adjusted properly and will not hold the trailer when doing this by hand.

The ONLY way to know for sure is to TEST the brakes functionality by putting them under a load like using your vehicle to pull forward or backward.

Knowledge is key, fears of unknowns is fear, not knowledge.

Really to certify trailer brakes require skidding the tires in PA, thank goodness its not required here . I have changed ,adjusted , etc trailer brakes . I have a pretty good knowledge of how they work . But rest assured I am NOT going to hook up my 16K fifth wheel, and drag it across my driveway 1 foot two foot or whatever to see how well they are working . Besides I have disc brakes on my fifth wheel , and trust me they work well . As I said about the wiring I am no expert ,but you straightened us all out . Everyone meant well trying to help .

To some it up, you are absolutely right ,that trailer should take the stress. If anyone has paid any attention when backing a trailer on pavement or asphalt ,and seen the stress on just the tires alone they would understand the abuse the trailer takes . You can have it you way, and quote all the cliches you want. its not a fear of something I don't know . I am just not going to deliberately subject my trailer to any more abuse then needed . Why not just a drive test ,see how things are doing.