Li recycling 2% old fashioned lead acid 98%

[noteven]

In the podcast "Let's Talk About Electric Vehicles" Season 1, Episode 3 the podcaster discusses what happens to discarded lithium batteries. The podcaster lists sources and citations in the show notes.

Lithium batteries of all sorts have been in use for about 20yrs. 2% of lithium batteries are scrapped to recover recyclable materials.

vs 98% of lead acid batteries.

[wa8yxm]

noteven wrote:
I wonder fore example, when I see a pickup trucker towing an overloaded dump or flatbed - with a squatted out $90K Sooper Duty - and I'm driving my Kenworth - why don't they use the pickup properly or get a truck built for that kind of use? I doan know... - but for 95% of pickup owners I bet the truck does the job they bought it for properly - mine do...

That one I can answer.. ADVERTISING.

Ever see the ads where they have a way too small truck towing a way too big load.. ON a closed road.. at low speed. (But they use trick photography to make it look otherwise.

See how much our little 150 or smaller class pickup can tow?

Well people believe the ads.

[time2roll]

What percentage of crude oil gets recycled?

[Reisender]

pnichols wrote:
Regarding "range comparisons" between EV daily drivers and fossil fuel daily drivers: Our daily driver must be ready for anything anytime (cuz I can't afford multiple types of daily drivers) ... not just running around servicing life's routine errands/work/etc..

i.e. We don't fly and we don't rent and we don't bus and we don't train, so how do we make unplanned/emergency long road trips to other states? For around 6 years we had to make multiple 1800 mile round trips to help care for my dear mother-in-law before she passed. We have other loved ones a long ways away that it's best we be able to visit for whatever reasons, if needed, at the drop of a hat.

When an EV has a 500 mile range in cold or hot or normal weather - with no access-wait charge up stations all over the place and a 15 minute charge up time -> then EV's will be ready for prime time. Until then, they're merely a niche market vehicle for specialized/restricted transportation use ... IMHO.

FWIW, what the transportation world needs most are batteries with energy storage volumetric densities approaching that of gasoline and diesel fuels.

For what its worth if I was in your position with those conditions I would probably have a gasser too. But I would think yours is an edge case. Having the ability to drive 600 or 700 kilometres a day would probably suffice for the vast majority of the population The majority of EV's sold do that now. So I would disagree and say that they are "ready for prime time", meaning they suffice most peoples needs.

JMHO

[pnichols]

Regarding "range comparisons" between EV daily drivers and fossil fuel daily drivers: Our daily driver must be ready for anything anytime (cuz I can't afford multiple types of daily drivers) ... not just running around servicing life's routine errands/work/etc..

i.e. We don't fly and we don't rent and we don't bus and we don't train, so how do we make unplanned/emergency long road trips to other states? For around 6 years we had to make multiple 1800 mile round trips to help care for my dear mother-in-law before she passed. We have other loved ones a long ways away that it's best we be able to visit for whatever reasons, if needed, at the drop of a hat.

When an EV has a 500 mile range in cold or hot or normal weather - with no access-wait charge up stations all over the place and a 15 minute charge up time -> then EV's will be ready for prime time. Until then, they're merely a niche market vehicle for specialized/restricted transportation use ... IMHO.

FWIW, what the transportation world needs most are batteries with energy storage volumetric densities approaching that of gasoline and diesel fuels.

[StirCrazy]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Best you can do?


Lithium batteries are not always RV friendly, they do not like HEAT nor do they like COLD, they like basically "room temperature".. How many times have you personally camped when the max and min temps were 70-80 F all day and night?

So, to keep Lithium batteries happy you MUST COOL them when they get too hot (waste energy) and when they get too cool you MUST HEAT them (waste energy).. neither is ideal..

At least with Lead acid they CAN be charged and discharged at extreme temps without the needs for temperature controls that monitor and apply heat or cold when needed.

Better buy into the Lithium is best band wagon with your eyes open, charging Lithium batteries in cold temps can destroy them in a second.

wow, didnt know it was a compatition, was just pointing out that new methods have raised that number from 50 to 80% as it was recient and i would imaging at the pace new advancements are happening it will continue to go up.

as for the rest of your post 70-80 degrees realy? have you even read anything on Li or are you just spouting what you "heard"

the surface operating temp should be kept between 0C - 60C (or 32F-140F) I dont know about you but that would cover most of the camping I would ever do. well might camp colder but if I went with Li, I would just put them inside the space so the rv furnace keeps them warm.

I do run lead acid batteries my self, but I am looking at moving to Li in my camper at least maybe the 5th wheel also. for the camoer I can get 3 times the capacity (usable) in about 1/2 the space and 1/3rd the weight. plus no offgasing, faster charging times and longer life.

Steve

[time2roll]

Bumpyroad wrote:
my question exactly. if a car AC can be run on battery power plus move the car, why can't that battery run a larger AC ??
bumpy

Battery can easily power an RV A/C. The real trouble is the RV A/C units are not as efficient as they could be. Combined with the typical poor installation and running the inadequate ducts in the super heated roof cavity, the RV units are inefficient power hogs. An efficient mini-split system should provide better cooling and use less power. EV A/C systems are very efficient using variable speed compressors and computer controls.

[noteven]

Reisender wrote:

noteven wrote:

Reisender wrote:

noteven wrote:
AAA did a study that showed 95% of electric vehicles in use today have sufficient range, according to their owners. The study also found some other interesting stuff.

The range anxiety paradox is from people who have no experience with a battery electric vehicle, or have used one for the wrong purpose. The paradox comes from the industry trying to respond with bigger batteries ($$) to satisfy a need from people who haven't used the technology to satisfy a range need that doesn't exist 95% of the time...

I wonder, for example, when I see a pickup trucker towing an overloaded dump or flatbed - with a squatted out $90K Sooper Duty - and I'm driving my Kenworth - why don't they use the pickup properly or get a truck built for that kind of use? I doan know... - but for 95% of pickup owners I bet the truck does the job they bought it for properly - mine do...

If I suggested golf cars should be diesels because they would have 4 days of 36 holes range without refuelling, that would make sense, right?

Part of it is we get stuck in our ways. Is an electric vehicle that has a range of 500 km sufficient for road trips? Sure it is. But you may have to change how you do things a bit. We occasionally (rarely) have to do a 800 to 900 km road trip. Long day but doesn't take any longer than with a gas vehicle. The only difference is food and rest/pee breaks are done concurrently at charging facilities. Eg, before going into the restaurant (or in our case the lunch we bring in our 12 volt cooler) we take the extra 8 seconds to plug in to the charging facilites. Wether its a 10 minute pee break or a 20 minute lunch or supper break you use the time to recharge. Can't really do this at a gas station because you are supposed to not just leave the car at a pump. Not so with an EV as you just plug in and walk away.

Its not a big adjustment and the benefits of going electric are huge.

Yes - one episode of the podcast I referenced discusses another general study of personal cars used for work commuting, trips,etc. I don't remember exact numbers but out of something like 300 days used in 365, it was 6 or 9 times were trips that would challenge existing BEV range capability...

Anyways if I had a BEV, I could have a nap while supercharging on a trip, no problem.

Non Tesla BEV’s are ok for naps while fast charging as they charge slower and the chargers are slower. It’s tougher in a Tesla though unless you have run the battery flat and your looking to get every las amp in the battery. (Charging slows down a lot over 90 percent). To date our longest Suoercharger stop has been about 20 minutes ish. Short nap.

20 minutes! Whaaat?! That would be totally intolerable on a 1000km trip!

Just kidding of course... why, that would give folks time to pick up their fur babies turds for once....

I have mastered the 10-15minute power nap when travelling by 4+ wheels (needs must) or motorcycle (woo hoo). They are a thing of beauty. One must practice the quieting of the mind, Grasshopper

[Reisender]

noteven wrote:

Reisender wrote:

noteven wrote:
AAA did a study that showed 95% of electric vehicles in use today have sufficient range, according to their owners. The study also found some other interesting stuff.

The range anxiety paradox is from people who have no experience with a battery electric vehicle, or have used one for the wrong purpose. The paradox comes from the industry trying to respond with bigger batteries ($$) to satisfy a need from people who haven't used the technology to satisfy a range need that doesn't exist 95% of the time...

I wonder, for example, when I see a pickup trucker towing an overloaded dump or flatbed - with a squatted out $90K Sooper Duty - and I'm driving my Kenworth - why don't they use the pickup properly or get a truck built for that kind of use? I doan know... - but for 95% of pickup owners I bet the truck does the job they bought it for properly - mine do...

If I suggested golf cars should be diesels because they would have 4 days of 36 holes range without refuelling, that would make sense, right?

Part of it is we get stuck in our ways. Is an electric vehicle that has a range of 500 km sufficient for road trips? Sure it is. But you may have to change how you do things a bit. We occasionally (rarely) have to do a 800 to 900 km road trip. Long day but doesn't take any longer than with a gas vehicle. The only difference is food and rest/pee breaks are done concurrently at charging facilities. Eg, before going into the restaurant (or in our case the lunch we bring in our 12 volt cooler) we take the extra 8 seconds to plug in to the charging facilites. Wether its a 10 minute pee break or a 20 minute lunch or supper break you use the time to recharge. Can't really do this at a gas station because you are supposed to not just leave the car at a pump. Not so with an EV as you just plug in and walk away.

Its not a big adjustment and the benefits of going electric are huge.

Yes - one episode of the podcast I referenced discusses another general study of personal cars used for work commuting, trips,etc. I don't remember exact numbers but out of something like 300 days used in 365, it was 6 or 9 times were trips that would challenge existing BEV range capability...

Anyways if I had a BEV, I could have a nap while supercharging on a trip, no problem.

Non Tesla BEV’s are ok for naps while fast charging as they charge slower and the chargers are slower. It’s tougher in a Tesla though unless you have run the battery flat and your looking to get every las amp in the battery. (Charging slows down a lot over 90 percent). To date our longest Suoercharger stop has been about 20 minutes ish. Short nap.

[noteven]

Reisender wrote:

noteven wrote:
AAA did a study that showed 95% of electric vehicles in use today have sufficient range, according to their owners. The study also found some other interesting stuff.

The range anxiety paradox is from people who have no experience with a battery electric vehicle, or have used one for the wrong purpose. The paradox comes from the industry trying to respond with bigger batteries ($$) to satisfy a need from people who haven't used the technology to satisfy a range need that doesn't exist 95% of the time...

I wonder, for example, when I see a pickup trucker towing an overloaded dump or flatbed - with a squatted out $90K Sooper Duty - and I'm driving my Kenworth - why don't they use the pickup properly or get a truck built for that kind of use? I doan know... - but for 95% of pickup owners I bet the truck does the job they bought it for properly - mine do...

If I suggested golf cars should be diesels because they would have 4 days of 36 holes range without refuelling, that would make sense, right?

Part of it is we get stuck in our ways. Is an electric vehicle that has a range of 500 km sufficient for road trips? Sure it is. But you may have to change how you do things a bit. We occasionally (rarely) have to do a 800 to 900 km road trip. Long day but doesn't take any longer than with a gas vehicle. The only difference is food and rest/pee breaks are done concurrently at charging facilities. Eg, before going into the restaurant (or in our case the lunch we bring in our 12 volt cooler) we take the extra 8 seconds to plug in to the charging facilites. Wether its a 10 minute pee break or a 20 minute lunch or supper break you use the time to recharge. Can't really do this at a gas station because you are supposed to not just leave the car at a pump. Not so with an EV as you just plug in and walk away.

Its not a big adjustment and the benefits of going electric are huge.

Yes - one episode of the podcast I referenced discusses another general study of personal cars used for work commuting, trips,etc. I don't remember exact numbers but out of something like 300 days used in 365, it was 6 or 9 times were trips that would challenge existing BEV range capability...

Anyways if I had a BEV, I could have a nap while supercharging on a trip, no problem.

[2oldman]

Reisender wrote:
Its not a big adjustment and the benefits of going electric are huge.

I'd love to get one. Imagine how much cleaner parking lots would be by getting rid of oil-leaking cars. I have a battery lawn mower, string trimmer and going to get an electric tractor.

[Reisender]

noteven wrote:
AAA did a study that showed 95% of electric vehicles in use today have sufficient range, according to their owners. The study also found some other interesting stuff.

The range anxiety paradox is from people who have no experience with a battery electric vehicle, or have used one for the wrong purpose. The paradox comes from the industry trying to respond with bigger batteries ($$) to satisfy a need from people who haven't used the technology to satisfy a range need that doesn't exist 95% of the time...

I wonder, for example, when I see a pickup trucker towing an overloaded dump or flatbed - with a squatted out $90K Sooper Duty - and I'm driving my Kenworth - why don't they use the pickup properly or get a truck built for that kind of use? I doan know... - but for 95% of pickup owners I bet the truck does the job they bought it for properly - mine do...

If I suggested golf cars should be diesels because they would have 4 days of 36 holes range without refuelling, that would make sense, right?

Part of it is we get stuck in our ways. Is an electric vehicle that has a range of 500 km sufficient for road trips? Sure it is. But you may have to change how you do things a bit. We occasionally (rarely) have to do a 800 to 900 km road trip. Long day but doesn't take any longer than with a gas vehicle. The only difference is food and rest/pee breaks are done concurrently at charging facilities. Eg, before going into the restaurant (or in our case the lunch we bring in our 12 volt cooler) we take the extra 8 seconds to plug in to the charging facilites. Wether its a 10 minute pee break or a 20 minute lunch or supper break you use the time to recharge. Can't really do this at a gas station because you are supposed to not just leave the car at a pump. Not so with an EV as you just plug in and walk away.

Its not a big adjustment and the benefits of going electric are huge.

[noteven]

wa8yxm wrote:
One of the reasons Lead Acid recycling is 98% is that we have actual laws.
Now you the consumer do not see the law so much as the stores do but you know what CORE is? When you buy a battery and install it you take the old one in for CORE exchange (refund) or in my case normally I take the old battery in, buy the new and then install (on the RV, on the car I let the store install) so I get a "Discount" for returning the old battery to the store.

NOT so with LI batteries
And we have a "Throw it in the trash" Mentality so they get thrown in the trash.

IF we had CORE return policy on LI's More would be recycled.

Yes - back to the topic -

The figure I quoted in the OP is batteries at the end of their service life being scrapped for materials ("recycled") vs landfilled or incinerated or thrown in the fire ring on BLM land...

[noteven]

Bumpyroad wrote:

pnichols wrote:
What in the world is the AH capacity of fully charged Tesla car batteries, anyway?

In the RV world, the electrical power consumed by air conditioners and electric heaters is so astronomical as to be nearly impossible to consider them being powered for any length of time by RV battery banks regardless of the physical size of the battery banks.

How does Tesla cram that much lithium battery power under the floors(?), in the fender voids(?), in the underhood void(?), and/or under the trunk floor(?) so as be able to power both the car and A/C or heater on long trips?

I find it hard to believe. :h

my question exactly. if a car AC can be run on battery power plus move the car, why can't that battery run a larger AC ??
bumpy

bumpy - dc batteries can power "RV" AC - I have friends who self built an off road capable Ford camper truck who operate the house loads completely from a Lithium battery bank using re-purposed airliner batteries. Indoor cooking is induction, AC is a mini-split, water pressure is compressed air, LED lights, he works on the road so efficient computers... etc. But their rig is not "normal".

But if you search the u toobs a bit there are people who have piled enough solar and batteries in a conventional RV to operate the AC loads in a practical way.

My truck camper has a Mach 8 air conditioner that is so loud it drowns out the generator anyways so I just use that when needed 😄

[noteven]

AAA did a study that showed 95% of electric vehicles in use today have sufficient range, according to their owners. The study also found some other interesting stuff.

The range anxiety paradox is from people who have no experience with a battery electric vehicle, or have used one for the wrong purpose. The paradox comes from the industry trying to respond with bigger batteries ($$) to satisfy a need from people who haven't used the technology to satisfy a range need that doesn't exist 95% of the time...

I wonder, for example, when I see a pickup trucker towing an overloaded dump or flatbed - with a squatted out $90K Sooper Duty - and I'm driving my Kenworth - why don't they use the pickup properly or get a truck built for that kind of use? I doan know... - but for 95% of pickup owners I bet the truck does the job they bought it for properly - mine do...

If I suggested golf cars should be diesels because they would have 4 days of 36 holes range without refuelling, that would make sense, right?