Payload Rating vs Tongue Weight

[kb1234]

I have a vehicle with a 5000lbs tow rating, 1296lbs payload capacity, and 500lbs tongue weight rating.

When I see people calculating the towing capacity I don't see them considering the tongue weight rating, they usually take the payload and subtract weight in the vehicle and say that is what remains for the tongue weight. So for example if I had 400lbs of people and gear I would go 1296-400=896, so I need to keep the tongue weight under that.

Is the 500lbs listed in the manual just some standard 10% of the tow rating (I noticed tongue weight is often listed as exactly 10% of the tow capacity). Is this just a common practice since there are people out there not paying attention to their vehicle payload capacity?

I know the hitch has its own capacities, I'm asking specifically about the vehicle. Thanks

[drsteve]

Does you Santa Fe allow the use of a WD hitch? Some unibody SUVs do not have sufficient strength to take the additional load. Someone posted here some time back about their WD hitch bending rear suspension components on (I believe) a Kia SUV.

[kb1234]

Thanks RoyJ. That 975 was with one rear passenger and a very small amount of cargo, but I'm not expecting any more when towing. The vehicle does have a unibody frame and the hitch has 8 attachment points, 4 to weld nuts in the frame rails and 4 carriage bolts.

On a side note, back when I first posed the question I looked through some other vehicle manuals I found online and I did see a several of them listing tongue weights at exactly 10% as well, so there seemed to be a pattern, which in part is what prompted my question.

[RoyJ]

Thank you. Being a unibody passenger vehicle, my guess is rear GAWR and the hitch attachment points on the chassis. Both of those are a non-issue @ 500 lbs tongue on a light truck.

Based on 975 lbs remaining capacity: at 500 lbs tongue, geometry would place around 600 on the rear axle, leaving 2 passengers in the rear seat, or 1 pass and some rear cargo before capacity is reached.

The factory attachment points are essentially strengthened sheet metal. The actual bolt holes may experience 2 - 3 times the tongue weight depending on hitch geometry. 500 lbs may be all the OEM engineers want to validate, given shock loading (say a speed bump).

Now, if you ensure no weight behind the front seats, remove the spare tire, and strength all attachment points with steel plate, I'm sure you can safely go above 500 lbs. As long as you remain within rear GAWR. As long as you're okay with any risk.

[kb1234]

RoyJ wrote:
OP - what's the vehicle in question?

Relatively rare for OEMs to specify tongue limits for hitches they didn't supply.

With an aftermarket hitch, tongue weight is just (badly placed) payload. As long as you don't go over rear GAWR, then I don't see why you're limited.

It is a 2017 Hyundai Santa Fe AWD. All models come equipped with a towing package which includes tran cooler and wiring to bumper, but no hitch. Only after after market hitches are available, and the CURT one specific for the vehicle (bolts to factory frame holes and hitch aligns through cutout in bumper) is weighted for 900lbs tongue. If I recall correctly the door sticker states it has around 1300lbs payload. I did do a CAT scale measurement with vehicle loaded and it came in 975lbs under GAWR.

[RoyJ]

OP - what's the vehicle in question?

Relatively rare for OEMs to specify tongue limits for hitches they didn't supply.

With an aftermarket hitch, tongue weight is just (badly placed) payload. As long as you don't go over rear GAWR, then I don't see why you're limited.

[carringb]

To put it simply... If your owner's manual calls out a tongue weight limit that is lower than the hitch receiver, there is some other structural limitation in place. As mentioned above, receiver assemblies may be used on more than one model. If your specific case, there's likely concerns with the rear unibody or subframe strength. Double check your receiver is even rated for weight distribution. I suspect its not.

So... don't exceed any of the following: Stated hitch limit or payload or RAWR. Without the ability to use WD, the RAWR may become the actual tow-weight limit for your vehicle.

[Grit_dog]

bikendan wrote:


The 900lbs is the rating for the hitch receiver ONLY, not for the vehicle it's attached to. That same receiver is mounted to many different models with different towing specs.
Go by the vehicle's owners manual, not what's on the receiver.

More false info, unless it's an aftermarket hitch. If factory, it's good.

[kb1234]

otrfun wrote:

kb1234 wrote:
Thanks everyone for answering. I guess I still don't have a clear answer to may real question.

Is there some reason that manufactures very often specify a tongue weight capacity of 10% the max towing capacity regardless of GVWR, GAWRFR, or GAWRR? I was even looking a a hitch component manufacturer the other day and on their website and they said to determine the tongue weight by calculating 10% GTWR.

This conflicts with a 10-15% ideal weight on the hitch, and is basically forces the towing capacity to be lower than specified.

In addition in the forums I keep seeing allowed tongue weight determined by taking GAWRR and subtracting the rear axle weight from a CAT scale. When people ask questions about tongue weight the answer seems to often neglect any reference to the tongue weight capacity specified by the manufacturer.

Ideal/specific tongue weight will vary by application; however, generally speaking tongue weight should be 10-15% of the total weight of the trailer (bumper-pull).

If your vehicle has a 5,000 tow capacity rating and 500 lb. tongue weight rating, you may find yourself unable to safely tow some 5,000 lb. trailers *if* they end up requiring 15% tongue weight (750 lbs.) to handle well. Every towing situation is unique.

If your manufacturer recommends no more than 500 lbs. of tongue weight, then there are probably mechanical limitations (frame, suspension, driveline, receiver, etc.) that trump any axle capacity you may have based on the RAWR (rear axle weight rating). For instance, a Ram 3500 dually may have 6,000 lbs. of rear axle capacity (RAWR minus empty rear axle weight); however, the Ram OEM CAT V receiver is only rated for 1,700 lbs. so the maximum tongue weight this truck can support is 1,700 lbs.

Thanks

[kb1234]

Ejraste wrote:
from what I understand, it seems that the 500lbs rating is if you just put a ball on the bumper and pull that way. If you have a hitch installed then you would go by that rating. My f150 had the same thing and stated a 500lb tongue weigh rating, but it was for a bumper pull.

Thanks

[otrfun]

kb1234 wrote:
Thanks everyone for answering. I guess I still don't have a clear answer to may real question.

Is there some reason that manufactures very often specify a tongue weight capacity of 10% the max towing capacity regardless of GVWR, GAWRFR, or GAWRR? I was even looking a a hitch component manufacturer the other day and on their website and they said to determine the tongue weight by calculating 10% GTWR.

This conflicts with a 10-15% ideal weight on the hitch, and is basically forces the towing capacity to be lower than specified.

In addition in the forums I keep seeing allowed tongue weight determined by taking GAWRR and subtracting the rear axle weight from a CAT scale. When people ask questions about tongue weight the answer seems to often neglect any reference to the tongue weight capacity specified by the manufacturer.

Ideal/specific tongue weight will vary by application; however, generally speaking tongue weight should be 10-15% of the total weight of the trailer (bumper-pull).

If your vehicle has a 5,000 tow capacity rating and 500 lb. tongue weight rating, you may find yourself unable to safely tow some 5,000 lb. trailers *if* they end up requiring 15% tongue weight (750 lbs.) to handle well. Every towing situation is unique.

If your manufacturer recommends no more than 500 lbs. of tongue weight, then there are probably mechanical limitations (frame, suspension, driveline, receiver, etc.) that trump any axle capacity you may have based on the RAWR (rear axle weight rating). For instance, a Ram 3500 dually may have 6,000 lbs. of rear axle capacity (RAWR minus empty rear axle weight); however, the Ram OEM CAT V receiver is only rated for 1,700 lbs. so the maximum tongue weight this truck can support is 1,700 lbs.

[Ejraste]

from what I understand, it seems that the 500lbs rating is if you just put a ball on the bumper and pull that way. If you have a hitch installed then you would go by that rating. My f150 had the same thing and stated a 500lb tongue weigh rating, but it was for a bumper pull.

[PA12DRVR]

"That assumption of a wdh is primarllily limited to RV owners. In the real working world, wdh setups are rare as hens teeth. People hook trailers and tow them when they have a job to do. They pine over tongue weights and where to load the canned goods and have a bathroom scale handy when they’re pulling a TT.
I can’t explain the phenomena."

Even as one who generally tries to stay within ratings, I wholeheartedly agree with this. Buying a truck and RV setup? Yeah, I'll run the numbers and stay within GVWR and GCVWR.

Have to haul something somewhere? Just like back in the day: if the deuce-and -a-half is available, I'll use it. Otherwise, I'll take the heavy duty pick-em-up....slower trip, watch the descents, but will get the job done.

From the time I was 16 (awful long time ago) until probably 40, either work or play involved hauling everything from OTR doubles to lowboys to sno-go trailers with anything from a GMC Astro (when it was a truck, although a POJ truck) to a Jeep Wagoneer to several varieties of Class 1 - 5 trucks. Never heard of a WDH until I bought my 1st RV.

To the OP's question, I haven't seen many vehicles that call out a specific limit on tongue weight, but if the vehicle manufacturer calls it out and you want to comply with the ratings, then a called out tongue weight will (extrapolating backwards) provide a limit on the trailer size, or at least the loading of that trailer. I'd dig into the manual and see if the tongue weight rating is truly the manufacturer's engineered rating or if it's a byproduct of the max trailer weight.

[Grit_dog]

valhalla360 wrote:
Usually when you get into the higher weights, there is an assumption that you are using a weight distributing hitch with a dedicated higher class receiver hitch. They typically have a higher weight rating (check the fine print in your manual)

500lb is typically just a plain ball often bolted to the rear bumper. If that's what you are running...no you are limited to 500lb hitch weight (or whatever it lists as) or payload max calculation...whichever is lower.

That assumption of a wdh is primarllily limited to RV owners. In the real working world, wdh setups are rare as hens teeth. People hook trailers and tow them when they have a job to do. They pine over tongue weights and where to load the canned goods and have a bathroom scale handy when they’re pulling a TT.
I can’t explain the phenomena.

[kb1234]

Thanks everyone for answering. I guess I still don't have a clear answer to may real question.

Is there some reason that manufactures very often specify a tongue weight capacity of 10% the max towing capacity regardless of GVWR, GAWRFR, or GAWRR? I was even looking a a hitch component manufacturer the other day and on their website and they said to determine the tongue weight by calculating 10% GTWR.

This conflicts with a 10-15% ideal weight on the hitch, and is basically forces the towing capacity to be lower than specified.

In addition in the forums I keep seeing allowed tongue weight determined by taking GAWRR and subtracting the rear axle weight from a CAT scale. When people ask questions about tongue weight the answer seems to often neglect any reference to the tongue weight capacity specified by the manufacturer.