Understanding towing capactity for Ford Expedition

[Tycho]

We are noobs to buying and owning TTs but we are learning. What continues to confuse us is the advice/research into what exactly is our max trailer capacity for pulling. What size trailer can we get. If I read the black and white numbers then it looks really good for us. But when I do deeper research including older posts on this board, I get really confused as I am not sure what we truly can and can't do.

Here is what we have for a TV:
2012 Expedition EL Limited (5.4L V8 and 3.73 Axel) with HD towing package (Trans cooler, Trailer brakes, class IV hitch).
The numbers Ford gives:
GCWR 15,000#s
Max Trailer size of 8,700#s.
Max tongue load of 890#s

Other numbers I have found:
Curb Weight: 5781#s
Maximum payload:1590#s

As an example TT, here are the specs on one we like the most so far.

UVW 5638#s
GVWR 7600#s
CCC 1962#s
Hitch Weight 639#s
Full length 33'5"

On the surface we look fine and should be able to pull it considering we are 1100#s under the max rating for our TV.

But if I do the math (I believe correctly...)
Curb weight + Max Payload + Trailer GVWR + Hitch Weight = 15,610#s

This means my GCW is over the GCWR rating if I was to fully load the TT and TV down. Does this then mean that I should avoid the TT and look for something smaller? Or since this is the extreme high end that I am ok?

The other concern I have is the tongue. If I again do the math, according to Ford I should be 10-15% of loaded trailer weight.
So calculating that it would be 760(10%)- 1140#s(15%). It will obviously exceed the rating of the tongue then at about 11%. So how do I interpret this? If I would go by the percents then I would be looking for a TT under 6000#s to accommodate the 15%. Why does the vehicle even get a 8700# rating. Confusing....

Are there other concerns I may be overlooking? Perhaps I missed something in my calculations and it is better than it looks?

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

montecarlo31 wrote:

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:
🙂 Hi, your Expedition is close to what my Navigator is. My Navigator has a payload of 1,600 lbs. and a tow rating of 8,900 lbs. My trailer has a GVWR of 6,300 lbs and an actual tongue weight of 900 lbs. This leaves about 700 lbs for me and my wife and some other stuff in my Lincoln. Also a 35' trailer is 10 feet longer than mine and will become a big sail when the wind hits it. My opinion is to have a trailer close to 25' and no more than 7,000 lbs. for your tow vehicle.


Another way to figure it out is to figure the tongue weight of a maxed out trailer and start deducting everything from your payload rating.

Wait so you are giving him advise as a 2000 navigator owner? You realize there have been two major overhauls since yours right? You realize his wheelbase is 12" longer than yours? You realize his curb weight (ability to control the towed load) is significantly higher? You realize the CG is lower? Please re-read and then maybe give some advise that is more applicable like my truck isn't anything like yours but I'll go ahead and give you some advise anyway.

🙂 Hi, your comment is rather harsh to me. Do you have any experience with something closer than I do? OK, let's split hairs if you like. Yes it is newer. Yes, it has rear independent suspension which gives it a lower center of gravity. Yes it is 12"s longer.

The Expedition three valve engine compared to my Navigator (only) 4 valve 5.4 L V-8 is 10 more HP for the Expedition, 10 more lbs. of torque. But the Navigator gets it's torque at 850 RPM lower than the Expedition. Axle ratio is the same. Trans; Expedition 6 speed, Navigator 4 speed. Tow rating 200 lbs. higher for the Navigator. Payload similar. Receiver specs similar.


Basically the newer Expedition's payload, and tow rating by Ford, is virtually identical to my Navigator. So to me that is a close match.

[Gdetrailer]

montecarlo31 wrote:

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:
🙂 Hi, your Expedition is close to what my Navigator is. My Navigator has a payload of 1,600 lbs. and a tow rating of 8,900 lbs. My trailer has a GVWR of 6,300 lbs and an actual tongue weight of 900 lbs. This leaves about 700 lbs for me and my wife and some other stuff in my Lincoln. Also a 35' trailer is 10 feet longer than mine and will become a big sail when the wind hits it. My opinion is to have a trailer close to 25' and no more than 7,000 lbs. for your tow vehicle.


Another way to figure it out is to figure the tongue weight of a maxed out trailer and start deducting everything from your payload rating.

Wait so you are giving him advise as a 2000 navigator owner? You realize there have been two major overhauls since yours right? You realize his wheelbase is 12" longer than yours? You realize his curb weight (ability to control the towed load) is significantly higher? You realize the CG is lower? Please re-read and then maybe give some advise that is more applicable like my truck isn't anything like yours but I'll go ahead and give you some advise anyway.

Actually ROBERT is kind of spot on with his assessment.

The 5.4 is kind of a weak point, don't get me wrong, the 3V 5.4 with 300 HP is no slouch by any means BUT it is not going to win an races when loaded. I towed my same 26Ft TT loaded to about 7K lbs with our older 2006 F250.. It pulled it but getting on long steep 8% grades made it work..

The main issue the OP will have IS the CARGO RATING of the vehicle. Large SUVs by their very nature of being fully closed by all that extra sheet metal just don't have all that much cargo weight left over..

Folks just have to have it all and can't fathom the idea of looking at smaller more manageable sizes.. Time to "SUPER SIZE", right?

Growing up, my parents took all six of us kids and went traveling with a pickup truck and TC.. Yep, EIGHT people.. Dad added and extra bunk over top the bottom bunk.. Looked like a bunch of sardines but we ALL lived to grow up and tell the tale.. It didn't kill us.

[montecarlo31]

ROBERTSUNRUS wrote:
🙂 Hi, your Expedition is close to what my Navigator is. My Navigator has a payload of 1,600 lbs. and a tow rating of 8,900 lbs. My trailer has a GVWR of 6,300 lbs and an actual tongue weight of 900 lbs. This leaves about 700 lbs for me and my wife and some other stuff in my Lincoln. Also a 35' trailer is 10 feet longer than mine and will become a big sail when the wind hits it. My opinion is to have a trailer close to 25' and no more than 7,000 lbs. for your tow vehicle.


Another way to figure it out is to figure the tongue weight of a maxed out trailer and start deducting everything from your payload rating.

Wait so you are giving him advise as a 2000 navigator owner? You realize there have been two major overhauls since yours right? You realize his wheelbase is 12" longer than yours? You realize his curb weight (ability to control the towed load) is significantly higher? You realize the CG is lower? Please re-read and then maybe give some advise that is more applicable like my truck isn't anything like yours but I'll go ahead and give you some advise anyway.

[travelnman]

Read Edmunds on the Ford Ex. They made a comment as to towing with a EX
or Nav and I was some what disappointed. I ran into a insurance man who was
a happy camper he had an interesting take on this. In a collision the Chevy
comes out ahead every time less expensive to repair because of the traditional
way of building pickups. Al this turbo charging and supercharging of small
engines is very expensive to have repaired and high maintenance. If you can
find a mechanic who understands all this technology. Ford went to a six
using technology to get more hp out of those six ponies but I wonder, I would
like to talk to someone who owns one pulling 8,000 lbs plus or minus, the
insurance guy said stick to a GM. No diesels either he didn't favor those,
just to expensive to repair leading to writing off your truck and handing you
a check for a fraction of what you paid. Its much easier he said to total
these high tech vehicles than fix them. Take this as opinion hear say advice
but he convinced me.

[Rustycamperpant]

The bottom line is your Expy will tow the TT. My 2009 with the 5.4 does fine with my almost 30' camper. It will really suck down the gas though be ready to let the motor rev up in the 4K range when pulling long hills.

We pack light and never fill the water tanks an carry nearly everything in the camper, not the TV. I personally don't think the length is that much of an issue, like others have said it is payload.

Believe it or not the only vehicles that move me around when they pass are a motor home, or something like a UPS truck that push a lot of air. Aerodynamic trucks and semis are not a problem now that I have my WDH set up correctly.

Sure, I would like to have a 3/4 ton diesel, but that is not in the cards right now ... so I use what I have.

[TXiceman]

You will be very near the limits on the Expy. Having started RVing many years back, and having similar limited tow vehicles, I would recommend a smaller trailer of a bit more tow vehicle.

A trailer that long on an Expy will not lead to very comfortable trips. It will make for weary long days. If you plan to stay close to home, you may get by with the Expy for the time being.

Ken

[Grit_dog]

Save for having a newer 5.0 or Eco B Expedition or a 6.2 Tahoe/Burb, you're still in the upper end of capability for any new full size SUV, since 2500s are non existent in the newer models.
I'd prefer more rig for what you're doing, but if you know how to tow and aren't interested in being the first one to the campground, your rig will do it safely and be capable.

[Fordlover]

Tycho wrote:
We are noobs to buying and owning TTs but we are learning. What continues to confuse us is the advice/research into what exactly is our max trailer capacity for pulling. What size trailer can we get. If I read the black and white numbers then it looks really good for us. But when I do deeper research including older posts on this board, I get really confused as I am not sure what we truly can and can't do.

Here is what we have for a TV:
2012 Expedition EL Limited (5.4L V8 and 3.73 Axel) with HD towing package (Trans cooler, Trailer brakes, class IV hitch).
The numbers Ford gives:
GCWR 15,000#s
Max Trailer size of 8,700#s.
Max tongue load of 890#s

Other numbers I have found:
Curb Weight: 5781#s
Maximum payload:1590#s

As an example TT, here are the specs on one we like the most so far.

UVW 5638#s
GVWR 7600#s
CCC 1962#s
Hitch Weight 639#s
Full length 33'5"

On the surface we look fine and should be able to pull it considering we are 1100#s under the max rating for our TV.

But if I do the math (I believe correctly...)
Curb weight + Max Payload + Trailer GVWR + Hitch Weight = 15,610#s

This means my GCW is over the GCWR rating if I was to fully load the TT and TV down. Does this then mean that I should avoid the TT and look for something smaller? Or since this is the extreme high end that I am ok?

The other concern I have is the tongue. If I again do the math, according to Ford I should be 10-15% of loaded trailer weight.
So calculating that it would be 760(10%)- 1140#s(15%). It will obviously exceed the rating of the tongue then at about 11%. So how do I interpret this? If I would go by the percents then I would be looking for a TT under 6000#s to accommodate the 15%. Why does the vehicle even get a 8700# rating. Confusing....

Are there other concerns I may be overlooking? Perhaps I missed something in my calculations and it is better than it looks?

Your tongue weight will be the concern as you have said. As to why the vehicle gets a 8700# rating? Because not all trailers=travel trailers. Boats are routinely happy with 10% tongue weight, but campers certainly won't be.

Travel trailers are the most difficult type of trailer to pull. Keep this in mind when you consider exceeding the ratings of the TV.

[OutdoorPhotogra]

I've run the numbers every which way but Sunday with an F-150, 5.4 V8, and 3.73 axle and my limit across all numbers is 6,500 lbs. And I have a greater cargo capacity probably mostly because the truck is lighter than the Expy.

I will differ on automatically using GVWR of the TT IF you intend to upgrade vehicles in the future AND only if the TT has a high cargo rating. I've looked at TTs with a dry weight around 5,000 but GVWR's around 7,000. I will not two 7,000#'s with this truck but I can throw a 1,000 lbs of gear in the TT and still be at 6,000. That puts me well under my GCWR and tow rating but a little margin on TW and cargo capacity of my truck. Also probably helps my TT that I'm not stressing it to the GVWR either.

[LarryJM]

Gdetrailer wrote:

Personally, I do not subscribe to the general consensus around most RV forums of going big or go home..

I call it the "super size" mentality where most folks think just because a vehicle is rated at a certain level that they MUST buy a trailer AT that level..

I would rather UNDER SIZE my trailer for the vehicle!

For instance, 2013 F250 with 3415 lbs of cargo.. 26ft TT loaded I am at 7K lbs.. Well below my vehicles capacity in all aspects..

Gives me plenty of leftover capacity just in case MR MURPHY crosses my path..

I can tell you, it HAS payed dividends a few times.. I have dodged DEER running across in front of me not once but TWICE over the years.. And at HIGHWAY SPEEDS!! One time was so close I could see the deer ticks JUMPING off the deer :E

MR MURPHY stinks but I beat him at his game :B

Had I had a lighter vehicle and heavier trailer, the outcome most likely would not have been good.

Again some very sage and salient points going directly to the age old "dog and tail" mentality which is not a straight numbers game, but while somewhat subjective is IMO an extremely important consideration. My TV/TT combo has always been heavy towards the TV by between 2000 and 3000 lbs and based on some 45 years of towing has served me well and kept Mr. Murphy in his proper place ... with someone else :B:C

Larry

[Gdetrailer]

Tycho wrote:
Boy this stuff is almost bad as common core math!
Looking at that 1385#s minus my families weight puts the number down in the 1000 range. Throw possibilities of cargo around 200 pounds and we are talking 800 range. Though I would think most of my cargo would be in the TT and not the Expy?
In any case that max number is looking lower than the max tongue load of 890#s.
I checked the hitch sticker and it can support the WD hitch which then says max tongue is 920 on the sticker.

Gdetrailer wrote:

Buying by using DRY or EMPTY weights without figuring in ALL the "stuff" you load into the trailer will often put you into a potential overload situation..

In our shopping I definitely have been looking at the max trailer weights not the dry. My rule of thumb has been looking at somewhere around 7500 or below. But as I read more online I have become more confused about what is going to be good for us. Some say it is too much TT for the TV, others have success stories of pulling TTs bigger for multiple years without issue.

Also another question, how much does a load leveling suspension help? My Expy has one when we bought it and am not sure how helpful it is.

Thanks again for everyone's comments and helpful suggestions!

Think of it as two different "cargo's", one is passengers plus stuff like snacks, drinks, entertainment, games, tablets/computer items/cellphones that you take IN the vehicle..

Then the second "cargo" is all the needed camping items you will want to take with you..

The second one really adds up and it is typically carried as cargo by the trailer.

Typically you will take pots, pans, silverware, food, drinks, clothing for each person, bedding for each person, additional entertainment items, games, basic tools, extension cords, water hose(s), sewer hose, wood blocking (for leveling and under stabilizers), flashlights, bicycles, outdoor chairs and so on and so on..

Some trailers the 12V battery AND propane tanks and propane are not accounted for in the trailer dry weight.. That can add 120 lbs directly to your tongue weight.

Pretty darn good chance you will average 800-1,000 lbs of personal items you will put into the trailer for camping..

Additionally, if you plan to dry camp, freshwater WILL take a huge bite out of your trailer cargo..

If this is your first time towing/camping, typically as a newbee you will tend to pack on the heavy side.. Took us a couple of years to weed out a lot of extra unneeded stuff!

Personally, I do not subscribe to the general consensus around most RV forums of going big or go home..

I call it the "super size" mentality where most folks think just because a vehicle is rated at a certain level that they MUST buy a trailer AT that level..

I would rather UNDER SIZE my trailer for the vehicle!

For instance, 2013 F250 with 3415 lbs of cargo.. 26ft TT loaded I am at 7K lbs.. Well below my vehicles capacity in all aspects..

Gives me plenty of leftover capacity just in case MR MURPHY crosses my path..

I can tell you, it HAS payed dividends a few times.. I have dodged DEER running across in front of me not once but TWICE over the years.. And at HIGHWAY SPEEDS!! One time was so close I could see the deer ticks JUMPING off the deer :E

MR MURPHY stinks but I beat him at his game :B

Had I had a lighter vehicle and heavier trailer, the outcome most likely would not have been good.

[Grit_dog]

Short story, Expe is very capable. I'm not the weight cops, but I wouldn't want to haul around something that long with one, but it will do it ok. Just ok, not awesome.
5.4 will be a pooch with that big of a trailer, but I've tortured many 4.6s and 5.4s as bad or worse and they just keep coming back for more.

[Tycho]

Boy this stuff is almost bad as common core math!
Looking at that 1385#s minus my families weight puts the number down in the 1000 range. Throw possibilities of cargo around 200 pounds and we are talking 800 range. Though I would think most of my cargo would be in the TT and not the Expy?
In any case that max number is looking lower than the max tongue load of 890#s.
I checked the hitch sticker and it can support the WD hitch which then says max tongue is 920 on the sticker.

Gdetrailer wrote:

Buying by using DRY or EMPTY weights without figuring in ALL the "stuff" you load into the trailer will often put you into a potential overload situation..

In our shopping I definitely have been looking at the max trailer weights not the dry. My rule of thumb has been looking at somewhere around 7500 or below. But as I read more online I have become more confused about what is going to be good for us. Some say it is too much TT for the TV, others have success stories of pulling TTs bigger for multiple years without issue.

Also another question, how much does a load leveling suspension help? My Expy has one when we bought it and am not sure how helpful it is.

Thanks again for everyone's comments and helpful suggestions!

[Gdetrailer]

Tycho wrote:

APT wrote:
Your Expy is likely limited by either the as equipped payload or the recevier rating of 890 pounds. Check the driver's door sticker for max combined weight of occupants and cargo shall not exceed weight.

Sticker says shall not exceed 1385#s. How is that number different than max payload number I found or is it the same and the door is just the more accurate number?

Door sticker is the max cargo.

Trailer hitch sticker is the MAX that the hitch can handle safely.

Yellow door sticker cargo weight includes driver AND FULL TANK OF FUEL.

You subtract any other passengers and cargo placed in the tow vehicle from that yellow sticker cargo weight.

The result left over is the max cargo available your vehicle can handle safely.

Now if the max cargo you calculated from the yellow sticker exceeds the hitch rating then use the hitch rating as the max tongue weight you can tow.

IF the max cargo you calculated from the yellow sticker IS LESS THAN the hitch rating then use the LEFT OVER CARGO rating you calculated from the yellow sticker as the max tongue weight you can tow.

The tongue of the trailer becomes "cargo" of the vehicle.

You should have a min of 10% to 15% of the trailer weight as the tongue weight for a STABLE tow.

So, a 5,000 lb trailer should have 500 lbs to 750 lbs of tongue weight.

6,000 lb trailer should have 600 lbs to 900 lbs of tongue weight.

7,000 lb trailer should have 700 lbs to 1,050 lbs of tongue weight.

Keep in mind, weight distribution hitch will ADD some weight to the tongue.. typically figure in about 100 lbs..

A general rule of thumb is that you WILL run out of available "cargo" weight before you run out of any other weight.. So the reality is AVAILABLE CARGO is your limiting factor.

The weights I described above ARE FULLY LOADED WEIGHTS, NOT "DRY" OR "EMPTY" WEIGHTS!!!

Buying by using DRY or EMPTY weights without figuring in ALL the "stuff" you load into the trailer will often put you into a potential overload situation..