Weight Distribution with sway control question

[BobbyHJ]

I was wondering what the differences are between the straight line (CAM) and the 4 - Point weight distribution with sway control. Which one is better, and why? I assume the 2 -point distribution system is more for WD.

Thanks.

[Hannibal]

Many years ago, a family friend towed their Airstream with a Dodge station wagon using a Reese dual cam hitch. You could feel it snap back to center after a turn.
All sway control hitches only offer limited resistance to sway caused by minor pushes from wind or road conditions. Sway caused by improper load is way more force than sway control hitches offer.
I've never seen a test of the Pro-pride type hitch using a tongue light trailer. It would be interesting to see the results. A properly loaded trailer tows well without sway control so we may never know how effective they are.

[Huntindog]

kellem wrote:
I really don't care which WDH is better as my Reese DC works and is paid for.

Only way possible to find out would be real world test.
Use same truck and trailer and significantly reduce tounge weight by shifting weight to rear of trailer and run the same stretch of road......and the winner is ?

Probably the standard friction bar. It is the only antisway that does not depend on TW for its antisway resistance.

Which is why I recomend it for newbies. One can miss the setup badly and still derive some benefit from it.

[kellem]

I really don't care which WDH is better as my Reese DC works and is paid for.

Only way possible to find out would be real world test.
Use same truck and trailer and significantly reduce tounge weight by shifting weight to rear of trailer and run the same stretch of road......and the winner is ?

[beermanjoe]

I went from the cheap L bars with chains to an Equalizer with 4 point sway. Night and day performance. Should have done it years ago. I know nothing about the Reese but do know the Equalizer works great.

[Huntindog]

ScottG wrote:
I don't see any friction

You do not "see" friction. It exists.
Just about any solid surface can be used as a friction surface.

The EQUALIZER is a friction based hitch, and you haven't disputed this fact at all.

For some reason though, your beloved DC is not a friction hitch even though its anti sway force also relies on 2 metal surfaces sliding against each other.
Just because you want something to be so.... Doesn't make it so.

Oh yeah, that makes you WRONG.... Which is what you previously told me.

[ScottG]

Huntindog wrote:

ScottG wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.

Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry

Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.

The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.

The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.

Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.

To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.

Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?

You just described exactly why the DC is a FRICTION hitch.

The rest is just opinons... Is the DC better because it has increased friction when moving away from center than towards center? or is the Equalizer better because it can generate more force equally in BOTH directions?

Keep in mind that SWAY is a back and forth motion of the TT.

In reality, they both perform well. The advantage of the so called centering action of the DC is cancelled out if one believes that sway is when the TT wags back and forth... Since the DC has less force in this direction, it is at a disadvantage at that stage of sway. The EQUALIZER with its 4 points of friction can generate more antisway force in both directions.

Bottom line... They both perform well.

I don't see any friction and the instructions actually tell you lube those points when the hitch is set up tightly. They're actually a little comical. They say "never lubricate..." then go on to say "lubricate if... and finally, 'always lubricate..."
Both sides of the DC do work to control sway at the same time. They're just climbing up oposite ends of the bars saddles/pockets from each other.

Notice I never said friction systems dont work - they do but my experince is that the DC works better. I had a friction system for a long time. It worked OK but would tend to wear and get noisy (esp when wet). Seems like it would get contaminated with road scum, etc.
To us, the DC is easier and faster to set up than installing the extra friction bar.

[Huntindog]

ScottG wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.

Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry

Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.

The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.

The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.

Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.

To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.

Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?

You just described exactly why the DC is a FRICTION hitch.

The rest is just opinons... Is the DC better because it has increased friction when moving away from center than towards center? or is the Equalizer better because it can generate more force equally in BOTH directions?

Keep in mind that SWAY is a back and forth motion of the TT.

In reality, they both perform well. The advantage of the so called centering action of the DC is cancelled out if one believes that sway is when the TT wags back and forth... Since the DC has less force in this direction, it is at a disadvantage at that stage of sway. The EQUALIZER with its 4 points of friction can generate more antisway force in both directions.

Bottom line... They both perform well.

[ScottG]

LarryJM wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.

Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry

Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer.

The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields.

The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved.

Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding.

To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location.

Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?

[aftermath]

BobbyHJ, you asked a pretty straight forward question and got all sorts of testimonials. People will always support their decisions about what they drive, what the pull and how they hook it up. Human nature I suppose. Many of these posts sound like advertisements. Mine is better because it resists sway, it reacts to sway, it pushes, it pulls and if you own a HA or PP they will say it totally prevents sway.

To answer your question, both will do the job. There are a nice selection of hitches out there today and as long as it is matched to your trailer and TV combo and is set up properly you should be good to go. Posts that mention things like the location of your tanks, whether or not you want to drill into your frame and stuff like that bring up good points. I would add ease of hooking and unhooking and making adjustments if things change should also be considered.

That said, I will now defend my choice of my Equalizer. I have been towing with this brand hitch for about 16 years now, first on a white box trailer and now on my Airstream. When I first started out, the hitches that used chains lifted into place were also problematic when it came to backing up. This has been fixed today so it no longer is an issue. This was the reason I went with the Equalizer. I can hitch and unhitch on uneven ground and come at my trailer from any angle. Placing the bars is easy and I have never had to even use the pry bars to put them in place. It tows nicely and even in the stiffest of winds, I have never had a problem with sway. I am a KISS kind of guy. When I have a choice between two good options I will look for the one that is the simplest to operate. HA and PP are great hitches, the best as their owners always claim, but they require special backing skills and techniques along with dealing with a very heavy hitch head. Won't be going there any time soon.

[Mike134]

Here's something to visualize when you talk about hitches being able to "center" the trailer.

Picture the TV and TT on glare ice. Presume you have traction push on the trailer sideways at the far back end,(like the wind would) it's not difficult to sway the trailer sideways, now go to front and push on the A frame about 30" back from the hitch which is roughly where these "centering" hitches would act. It would take a huge amount of force with such little leverage to push the trailer back in line. Just my food for thought today

[Huntindog]

Lynnmor wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Since the friction bar can and should be adjusted, where did you get the "factory-set at 1100#" figure?

Just read the directions. The bar has a lever on one side and a bolt on the other. The lever is supposed to cranked down all the way every time. The bolt can be used to adjust it. The factory presets this bolt.

I know that many here adjust them with the lever, but the intructions specifically state not to.

My instructions do not mention that 1100# figure, but it does say to adjust. Yes, I know how to use it, just wondering where the 1100# came from.Mine said it could be adjusted if needed.
The 1100# figure came from Ron Gratz. He did the calculations, as per Larrys post which copied him.
The adjustment has limits,as those little balls and bar can only do so much.

[Lynnmor]

Huntindog wrote:

Since the friction bar can and should be adjusted, where did you get the "factory-set at 1100#" figure?

Just read the directions. The bar has a lever on one side and a bolt on the other. The lever is supposed to cranked down all the way every time. The bolt can be used to adjust it. The factory presets this bolt.

I know that many here adjust them with the lever, but the intructions specifically state not to.

My instructions do not mention that 1100# figure, but it does say to adjust. Yes, I know how to use it, just wondering where the 1100# came from.

[LarryJM]

ScottG wrote:

Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC.

Good luck to you.

Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets.

Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world.

With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed.

Larry

[Huntindog]

ScottG wrote:
Huntingdog, I'm sorry but you're wrong on both counts.
Yes, it pushes the trailer back in line but there's nothing dangerous about it. I've even had it in the snow. Is the force "significant"? It is enough to do the job, nothing more. It is easily overcome when turning by the weights involved.
No, it does not use friction for control. It doesn't use brake material anywhere like other systems do. It uses pure spring pressure via the spring bars pocket climbing up off the cam. You could submerge the entire thing in oil and it would still work the same.

Best of luck to you.

Scott

For many years we had a resident engineer on the forum. His name was Ron Gratz. I believe he must have passed, as he no longer comes up in searches... Bad thing about this forum is that at some point a lot of old posts disappeared from the forum.
Too bad, as there was some great info lost forever.
Ron was legendary in being able to dissect precisely how hitches work.. And yes the DC vs EQUALIZER was analyzed by him. I won't attempt to quote him, as it was beyond me at the time, and my memory would miss some points anyway.. But I do remember for a fact that he stated both hitches were primarily friction based.
He even calculated the amount of friction for steel on steel.... Just because there is no "friction" material like brake pads does not mean there is no friction.

As for you saying that you have towed safely in slippery conditions, I believe you. But that just destroys your theory of the DC forcing a 5-10K 20-30' TT back to center.
The cams simply cannot produce that much force. And if they could. since it would be present at all times, then it would create problems in slippery conditions.

It is a friction based system with the cams along for the ride. It does make for great marketing for those that don't do an in depth analysis,,,,, and it is a fine system in it's own right... But just doesn't work the way some think it does.