Generator Fuel Question

[ReneeG]

For those of you that have dual or tri-fuel generators, what has been your experience between gasoline and propane and/or natural gas regarding power and running time length? I read an article today that summarized that running a generator on gasoline provides more power whereas running on propane is cleaner (understandably). Was it worth the extra expense investing in a multi-fuel generator? Thinking of converting our gasoline to propane or tri-fuel using the Hutch Mountain conversion kits for Honda eu2000i.

[Grit_dog]

time2roll wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
I have also called the small little tiny airports within that same area to see if they sell 100LL Av gas to the public, they do not, in fact they have that in fenced in areas behind locks and only the airport managers have authority to open the gates and you must have a valid FAA issued tail number.

I have checked with my local sprint car racing dirt tracks and the nearby gas stations near those tracks for Ethanol free racing fuel.. They will not sell to the public.. To get that fuel one must have a valid on that race day entry ticket...

No road taxes and much still has tetra-ethyl lead for aviation and possibly the race fuel. Not legal for road use.

Never drove a generator before…

[time2roll]

Gdetrailer wrote:
I have also called the small little tiny airports within that same area to see if they sell 100LL Av gas to the public, they do not, in fact they have that in fenced in areas behind locks and only the airport managers have authority to open the gates and you must have a valid FAA issued tail number.

I have checked with my local sprint car racing dirt tracks and the nearby gas stations near those tracks for Ethanol free racing fuel.. They will not sell to the public.. To get that fuel one must have a valid on that race day entry ticket...

No road taxes and much still has tetra-ethyl lead for aviation and possibly the race fuel. Not legal for road use.

[Grit_dog]

^Must s uck to live in PA. Here, I drive up to the airport and get AV gas. Or to any number of fuel depots or gas stations for no Ethanol.
But, nice story GDE. With 314 stations in PA that sell pure gas, I’m pretty sure something isn't adding up.

[Gdetrailer]

Thermoguy wrote:
I have a Champion 4500 dual fuel. I have never put gas in it. It is plenty of power for the AC (which is why I have it) I can run 1.5 days or so on 1 20lb propane tank. It is much easier to get and carry propane when camping vs having to bring a gas can that smells and can leak or be messy. Also, propane is much cleaner and I don't have to worry about cleaning the carb which I would if I used regular gas. Which, by the way, all my yard equipment, etc, I only buy ethanol free gas. It's a little more expensive, like buying diesel, but removes many of the carb issues that I had before I started buying ethanol free gas.

Ahh, the fabled "Ethanol free" gas :R

Not available "everywhere".

I looked high and looked low all around a 100 mile radius of my home, zero gas stations offer 100% Ethanol free gas to the public.

I have also called the small little tiny airports within that same area to see if they sell 100LL Av gas to the public, they do not, in fact they have that in fenced in areas behind locks and only the airport managers have authority to open the gates and you must have a valid FAA issued tail number.

I have checked with my local sprint car racing dirt tracks and the nearby gas stations near those tracks for Ethanol free racing fuel.. They will not sell to the public.. To get that fuel one must have a valid on that race day entry ticket..

The only "Ethanol free" gas I have seen sold is in 1 pint or 1 quart bottles sold for lawn mowing equipment.. The cost, is not "slightly" more expensive, it is astronomically more expensive.. Something on the order of $20-$25 per gallon equivalent..

Yes, I have checked "Gas Buddy", the station near me they claim sells Ethanol free fuel does not have or sell Ethanol free fuel..

The reason I was trying to find Ethanol free gas?

I was given a 100+ yr old auto and wasn't sure if the float in the carb was up to the Ethanol.. I initially used Coleman fuel (Naphtha which is a close cousin to modern day gas) to get it started.. After examining the carb float, I was lucky, it was brass.. Have run that engine on 87 octane Ethanol laced gas ever since.

Note, please do not use Coleman fuel or Naphtha in any modern small engine, it has a very low octane rating and will predominate easily and destroy higher compression engines.

Ethanol has been sold to the public with varying percentages from 1% to 10% Ethanol in it since the 1970s, it just was never labeled as such. Gasohol (the E10 we have today) was introduced in early 1970s during the oil embargo and gas crisis as a way to make the gas we did get would fill more auto tanks, it failed due to the public not wanting to pay the premium price for it (Ethanol production cost more to make than refining gasoline). From 1975 and up all new vehicles were mandated to have advanced emissions which included a Catalytic converter.. With that change all fuel containing Lead was phased out. The function of lead was to add Oxygen and boost octane level..

It became a race between MTBE and Ethanol as the additives.. MTBE was favored until it was realized that the side effect of it was a very harmful to the environment emission of it in the tail pipes that covered the roads and washed off into the watershed..

The current E10 is what we had back in the 1970s which was called Gasohol and was forced to the public via EPA in the 1990s.. Live with it, it isn't going away anytime soon. You might find a slightly lower percentage of Ethanol than 10%, but it won't be zero percent..

Drain the carb when storing and nothing foul will happen to the carb.

[Thermoguy]

I have a Champion 4500 dual fuel. I have never put gas in it. It is plenty of power for the AC (which is why I have it) I can run 1.5 days or so on 1 20lb propane tank. It is much easier to get and carry propane when camping vs having to bring a gas can that smells and can leak or be messy. Also, propane is much cleaner and I don't have to worry about cleaning the carb which I would if I used regular gas. Which, by the way, all my yard equipment, etc, I only buy ethanol free gas. It's a little more expensive, like buying diesel, but removes many of the carb issues that I had before I started buying ethanol free gas.

[bgum]

We live in south Louisiana and can nearly smell the gulf air on normal days and can definitely smell it on squall days. We have never had a problem with moisture in our ethanol gas.

[Sjm9911]

If using gas, and worried about the ethanol, I am and think it clogs the carbs more, you can pre treat the gas. I always add fuel injector cleaner and stabil to the gas cans when filling. This way I never forget if I need to add them later or if the stuff sits a bit. If you like the seafoam , that may work also.

[ReneeG]

Thanks for all the feedback. It's been very helpful.

[MrWizard]

We had DP with propane powered Onan, on a summer trip in 2012, using the roof top A/C, we had to refill the built in lp tank every 3 days, that meant moving the MH to the lp seller every 3 days,
Currently with this gasser, im using a champion portable dual Fuel generator, i have not used the propane option, propane is $3 gallon, Reg 87 octane is over $5.29 gal and E85 Flex Fuel "Ethanol" is $3.39 gal, im burning E85 in the Champion,
Ethanol 88kbtu gal , gas 116kbtu gal, 25% less energy, but cost 40% less $$, the engine runs cleaner,
But too keep it from being lean and running rough, i adjust the choke for smooth running , varnish has not been an issue , I'm full time , so No long term storage for the generator or fuel, does not have the chance to absorb moisture or dry up, gasoline or Ethanol,
For me gas has always been a better option than LP, and with current fuel prices, Ethanol is my best option, Gasoline is putting me in the poor house, its been busting my bank for months
Your experience might be different, its the fuel pricing and amount you will use versus availability and convenience, fixed location with natural gas or 500gal lp tank, against portable use locations storage transport etc.

[ktmrfs]

Skibane wrote:
Gasoline quality is a consideration.

Ethanol in gasoline reduces its energy content, and thus the generator's power output. Generator manufacturers test and rate their products using ethanol-free gas, so this power reduction isn't reflected in their specifications.

The upshot is that a generator with marginal power output using ethanol-free gas will have even more marginal output using gas with ethanol in it.

The maximum amount of ethanol allowed in gasoline was recently increased to 15 percent - so this is going to be more of an issue than it previously was.

Since ethanol tends to shorten the storage life of gasoline, many folks avoid using it in generators. Unfortunately, in areas where ethanol-free gas is available, it usually costs quite a bit more. That extra expense needs to be included when comparing fuel costs.

If the mfg designed the engine to run on 10% ethanol AND adjusted the carb correctly you won't see a decrease in power output. You WILL see a increase in fuel consumption (about 3%). In fact properly designed an engine running on alcohol can have more power than gasoline, just higher fuel consumption. Don't confuse energy content/gallon with power output, they are two completely seperate issues.


your statement on 15% ethanol is misleading.
1) yes 15% is allowed but ONLY if 10% pumps are also available
2) In many locations it is ONLY allowed during parts of the year
3) We've been traveling all over the west/midwest and south and have yet to see a pump with 15% ethanol

IMHO there is more FUD in the 10% ethanol that actual issues. Yes, 25+ year old gas engines can have problems with 10% ethanol, but modern engines it is seldom an issue even if carb's are left full for extended periods of time. In the last 20 years I've very seldom drained a tank on a small engine including my honda generators with 10% ethanol even when it was going to sit likely for 6 months and never had an issue.

What I have found is that many of the small engines on yard equipment that doesn't have a fuel bowl and float what one thinks is a fuel problem is just those el cheapo carbs hitting end of life. When a brand new OEM carb is $10-$15 there can't be much in them. When I've replaced them I found the throttle shaft was wobling all over and letting air/fuel leak. fuel bulb not working etc.

[time2roll]

I switched to propane as my gasoline generator mostly sat unused.

[cptqueeg]

One point that hasn't been made is the fuel containers, LP vs gas. I would much rather deal w the LP containers than gas cans, recognizing the ease of obtaining gas vs LP.

[Gdetrailer]

Skibane wrote:
Gasoline quality is a consideration.

Ethanol in gasoline reduces its energy content, and thus the generator's power output. Generator manufacturers test and rate their products using ethanol-free gas, so this power reduction isn't reflected in their specifications.

The upshot is that a generator with marginal power output using ethanol-free gas will have even more marginal output using gas with ethanol in it.

The maximum amount of ethanol allowed in gasoline was recently increased to 15 percent - so this is going to be more of an issue than it previously was.

Since ethanol tends to shorten the storage life of gasoline, many folks avoid using it in generators. Unfortunately, in areas where ethanol-free gas is available, it usually costs quite a bit more. That extra expense needs to be included when comparing fuel costs.

Nope.

I have bunches of small engine manuals that says other wise..

Here is page from my Echo CS-490 chain saw for example..


Click For Full-Size Image.

Note the sections I penciled in red.

Most small engine manufacturers simply warn to not use E15 (15% Ethanol) or E85 (85% Ethanol

Ethanol laced fuel is not new, has been done quietly for many yrs well before I was born. I remember one big open attempt to switch everyone over to E10 in the 1970s, it was called "Gasohol" and was a 100% dismal failure.

I suggest you take a history lesson from HERE which points out that Ethanol has been considered and used for engine fuel since the 1800s..

"In 1826, Samuel Morey invented the first internal combustion engine that was built to run on alcohol — probably made from grain. Later, Henry Ford championed alcohol fuels made from grain, potatoes or cellulose. In the 1880s, he designed one of the earliest automobiles to burn alcohol."

Henry Ford ALSO experimented with Ethanol as any farmer could technically make their own Ethanol from crops..

Any engine built in the last 15 yrs are specifically designed to operate on E10 gas. They had to, the manufacturers had zero choice in this if they wished to sell anything with an engine in the state of California with their fuel and emissions restrictions.

Will a engine perform better with non Ethanol laced gas? Maybe, but it also may not since there are slight variables in the fuel and small engines have absolutely no computer to recalibrate fuel delivery and spark advance.

Sure, straight gasoline has some merit, however, the Ethanol in the fuel delivers additional Oxygen (Oxygenate) which replaced the use of MTBEs and Leaded Gas.

Modern engines are tuned in fuel delivery and even the timing for use with unleaded E10 (10% ETHANOL) fuels.

If there is any question about what fuel can be used in your engine, consult the owners manual.

As far as storage, DRAIN THE CARB.

No fuel left in the carb means much less chances of Ethanol causing a clogged jet.

For small engines like my Chainsaws and weed cutter, I run till empty or dump out any leftover fuel if not going to be used for more than a month.

Generators, well I turn off the fuel valve at the tank and drain the carb..

Been doing this for 30 yrs now and now issues.

[Skibane]

Gasoline quality is a consideration.

Ethanol in gasoline reduces its energy content, and thus the generator's power output. Generator manufacturers test and rate their products using ethanol-free gas, so this power reduction isn't reflected in their specifications.

The upshot is that a generator with marginal power output using ethanol-free gas will have even more marginal output using gas with ethanol in it.

The maximum amount of ethanol allowed in gasoline was recently increased to 15 percent - so this is going to be more of an issue than it previously was.

Since ethanol tends to shorten the storage life of gasoline, many folks avoid using it in generators. Unfortunately, in areas where ethanol-free gas is available, it usually costs quite a bit more. That extra expense needs to be included when comparing fuel costs.