FOB keys and theft

[ajriding]

Keep those in a faraday bag or case when not in use. New vehicles only need the key close to the car, then when FOB is close the door will open and the push-button start will crank the engine and unlock the wheel.
Thieves can amplify your FOB signal (which always broadcast), and send it to your vehicle while you are away and just like that they are driving off.
Or they can clone your FOB signal and duplicate it.
Faraday bags will block the signal, and are around $10 on eBay.

[ajriding]

all you people talking about tinfoil hats, just dont do anything. Let them steal yours not mine.
This is like arguing that identity theft is a tinfoil hat conspircy and calling ppl names for being careful wow, just wow.

a faraday bag is about $10 on eBay, your tinfoil hat would work too as long as you completly wrap it, which is hard to do with foil.

These vehicles get stolen then driven quickly into a shipping container and shipped overseas. Stolen vehicles are rarely recovered for this reason. Professionals move them quick. Now, your little neighborhood thief might get caught, but not the crime rings.

Best solution is to install a kill switch. A lot (or very few) of ppl put a switch on the fuel pump wire, no gas no go...

In no way is this post meant to discuss, rather just to keep people aware that there a vulnerabilities with their vehicles and to take care. There is nothing to discuss. FOB can be faked/spoofed and your vehicle can be stolen just like that. For the thief with the tech it is childs play.

[TurnThePage]

I can't even start my truck if I toss my jacket (with the fob in the pocket) in the back seat.

[ktmrfs]

so, before the advent of RFID chips and key fobs stealing a car was a simple hot wire job, didn't take much skill.

I decided to see what REALLY happens if someone somehow did intercept my fob and started the car. Used the fob to start the car (which requires the car to be locked). Then assumed said person also was able to unlock the car.

Then I went out to the car in the garage, hung the fob on the wall about 18 inches away from the drivers door, got in and hit the start button (required to actually drive the car). Nada, zip, nothing. OK, opened the door and placed the fob on the garage floor just underneath the door jam. Hit the start button, Now the display said place the fob against the start button and press the button.

So..... now, getting the RFID rolling code and figuring out what to do to actually drive away a much much harder job.

Conclusion. Likelyhood that anyone can actually do this kind of theft about 1,000x less likely than stealing a car WITHOUT a RFID chip.

Oh, and on my other two cars an even harder job. The thief would have to have an actual working Key with the RFID chip to drive the car away after using the fob to unlock and start the car.

I'd say rather than trying to trash the effectiveness of todays fobs and chip, we should be saying thank you thank you thank you to the mfg for doing something to make car thefts magnitudes harder than a few decades ago.

[wapiticountry]

I can only hope my cars get stolen after I have had them about three years. The insurance settlement less deductible will be a much better deal than I would get on a trade in. And removing the trade leaves one less thing to negotiate over. Big win.
Of course, it won't happen since vehicle thefts by someone intercepting the signal from your FOB is 99.999% theoretical and .001 reality. Just like gas stations are not exploding because someone used their cell phone at the gas pump or RV owners who do not put on rubber gloves when dumping their tanks have not all dropped dead from disease, FOB interception is not a problem to worry about. Gotta run, it's been 71 hours and 59 minutes since I disinfected my Amazon package so in another minute I can open it and retrieve the treasures inside. Don't worry, I'll be sure to wear three masks.

[ktmrfs]

DrewE wrote:

Fisherman wrote:

Well how about asking the people that have their vehicles stolen and shipped overseas never to be found again. We have had a rash of them where the thieves get close to the front door of the house, manage to intercept and clone the FOB and leave with the vehicle. One case was actually video taped and shown on the news.

theft of vehicles

The fobs are not being cloned; instead, it seems they're using what's basically a signal extender or repeater to make the vehicle think the fob is closer than it is, close enough to get it to start. The technical distinction is, of course, of little importance to the unfortunate people who have their vehicles stolen; but it is none the less an important distinction, since the repeater only can work if the fob is not all that far away from the vehicle.

It's not possible to duplicate or clone a fob by listening in on the radio communications between the car and the fob (assuming the system has been designed in anything resembling a cryptographically proper way). It should be possible for car makers to mitigate the relay attack by having quite tight timing requirements for the fob and car communications, such that being sufficiently far away means the signal is delayed too long to be accepted. Even car thieves can't make radio waves travel faster than the speed of light.

spot on.

On all my vehicles even if you were able to somehow get the vehicle started on ALL my vehicles, the car remains locked and unless you get close enough to the car you can't unlock the car, and next even in the car you can't drive off until the RFID from the chip in the transponder or key is recognized, and in the car w/o the keyless go, key must go into the ignition. So they could start the car, they couldn't get in, and even if they did w/o a key couldn't do anything.

I suspect fob is an easy to blame reason for theft, but the real reason is something else more mundane.

[DrewE]

Fisherman wrote:

Well how about asking the people that have their vehicles stolen and shipped overseas never to be found again. We have had a rash of them where the thieves get close to the front door of the house, manage to intercept and clone the FOB and leave with the vehicle. One case was actually video taped and shown on the news.

theft of vehicles

The fobs are not being cloned; instead, it seems they're using what's basically a signal extender or repeater to make the vehicle think the fob is closer than it is, close enough to get it to start. The technical distinction is, of course, of little importance to the unfortunate people who have their vehicles stolen; but it is none the less an important distinction, since the repeater only can work if the fob is not all that far away from the vehicle.

It's not possible to duplicate or clone a fob by listening in on the radio communications between the car and the fob (assuming the system has been designed in anything resembling a cryptographically proper way). It should be possible for car makers to mitigate the relay attack by having quite tight timing requirements for the fob and car communications, such that being sufficiently far away means the signal is delayed too long to be accepted. Even car thieves can't make radio waves travel faster than the speed of light.

[Bobbo]

path1 wrote:
After reading this post and three or four other articles...couldn't I just install a hidden toggle switch into starter wire?

A little over 45 years ago I had an OLD Toyota. One day, when I started it, the key didn't return to RUN, it stayed on START. The starter didn't disengage so when I pressed on the gas the starter started turning at engine RPMs. It pulled enough power that it melted the insulation off of the wires from the ignition switch to the starter.

I bought a roll of heavy gauge wire and a horn button. I ran a wire from the battery to the horn button then to the starter. To start the car, I had to turn the ignition switch to ON, then reach under the dash where I mounted the button, and press it. Worked like a charm for years.

However, whenever I dropped off the car for service, if I forgot to tell them about the starter button, it didn't get serviced.

[Fisherman]

I would like to see actual verifieable data of the number of times ANYONE has been able to intercept the signal from a car remote, then unlock the car, let alone drive it away. (other than some demonstration using exotic equipment costing way more than the car to show it is possible)


Well how about asking the people that have their vehicles stolen and shipped overseas never to be found again. We have had a rash of them where the thieves get close to the front door of the house, manage to intercept and clone the FOB and leave with the vehicle. One case was actually video taped and shown on the news.

theft of vehicles

[EV2]

This thread is today’s winner of most misinformation in the least amount of space! (Although it all must be true...I saw it on the internet.)

[Matt_Colie]

I guess I have a near perfect automotive security system. I even leave the doors unlocked much of the time. Actually, I'm not sure how to lock them. I just carry the crank in my belt. 😉

Matt

[ktmrfs]

dougrainer wrote:
I have had 6 FOB cars in the past 20 years. ALL require that the FOB RF signal be CLOSE to start and run. The Lexus and Lincoln required the KEY to be in the Ignition with the constant FOB RF sending the signal to START and RUN the car. My other FOB's that have NO KEY, require that the FOB be within a few feet of the Dash Push Button and you must push the Brake Pedal while pushing the Start Button. Just unlocking the Auto with a stolen or hacked RF signal will not get the Auto started. Doug

PS, I leave tinfoil draped over all the headrests and have never had a problem. Make sure you leave the Shiny side UP:B

exactly!!!! Once at a gas station/grocery store DW decided to start getting groceries while I gassed up. Well, I didn't realize I didn't have the keys with me, only the one in her purse. About 50 feet away car warnings came on saying key was out of range and car would shut down. I had to yell at her to come back so I could finish getting gas.

Most people don't realize that the Fob functions of LOCKING UNLOCKING ETC. are completely INDEPENDENT of the function of STARTING the car. remote functions rely on a rolling code RF function, STARTING the car relies on close proximity RF ID with rolling code.

The fact that both are rolling codes, pretty much eliminates someone from intercepting the fob transmission and then getting into the car, let alone starting it.

I would like to see actual verifieable data of the number of times ANYONE has been able to intercept the signal from a car remote, then unlock the car, let alone drive it away. (other than some demonstration using exotic equipment costing way more than the car to show it is possible)


But the "tin foil hats" folks can go ahead and support and make rich the amazon faraday shield sellers.

[thomasmnile]

When we bought our 2019 Highlander with the gee whiz keyless entry/ignition I noted the owners' manual recommended to never stick the fob in the same pocket with a cell phone (or in a purse if a phone is carried in the purse.

What's the story? RF from one device to the other, Russian hackers, microwave the family jewels? 🙂

[dougrainer]

I have had 6 FOB cars in the past 20 years. ALL require that the FOB RF signal be CLOSE to start and run. The Lexus and Lincoln required the KEY to be in the Ignition with the constant FOB RF sending the signal to START and RUN the car. My other FOB's that have NO KEY, require that the FOB be within a few feet of the Dash Push Button and you must push the Brake Pedal while pushing the Start Button. Just unlocking the Auto with a stolen or hacked RF signal will not get the Auto started. Doug

PS, I leave tinfoil draped over all the headrests and have never had a problem. Make sure you leave the Shiny side UP:B

[valhalla360]

QCMan wrote:
If they boost the signal to get in and start it , won't it shut off when it gets out of range? Or is that the reason they go slow so the owner can run behind keeping it running?

Shush...don't mess with a good conspiracy theory.

[ronharmless]

I ordered my faraday bag today on amazon, it came with two free tin foil hats (in the shape of a pyramid). Got it all covered now!